WHO SHOULD VOTE? THE DEBATE CONTINUES AS MIA ANSWERS LES.

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Yes, you are right. I have not explored the franchise in deep detail because my simplistic view was only meant to be a starting point for a bigger debate. I think your contribution is great, because it gives us all an opportunity to think and research about all possibilities. There are, as you say, individual situations like your family’s that needs more careful thought.

I think the very first thing that will need to be established is what Scottish citizenship is. That is the crucial point. Citizenship is what should give you the right to vote in constitutional matters and should be defined in Scotland’s constitution. To me, this rule should be applicable to determine who can vote in a referendum or not independently if Scotland is already an independent country.

The rules of automatic citizenship are different for different countries. In some countries, like USA, Chile, Argentina, Canada, Mexico or Venezuela, to cite some, the birthplace is direct determinant of citizenship. if you are born in the country you are given automatically the citizenship. In Spain, for example, you do not get automatic citizenship if you are born in Spain. However, if a baby is born in Spain from non Spanish parents, the baby can acquire Spanish citizenship if they live in Spain for a year. Other countries have different rules for this scenario.

However, in most countries in Europe, automatic citizenship is for ancestry, meaning that to get automatic citizenship at least one of your parents have to be citizens, even if you are born elsewhere. The UK also follows this rule. If this was the option selected for Scotland, not just you, but also your children would automatically get their Scottish citizenship and right to vote at moment of birth through you.

In some countries, like Spain or France, if you are a Spanish/French citizen, even if you are not living in Spain/France at the time, you are entitled to vote in general elections and referendums (by post). However, the rule used by the UK, is that people who has lived for over 15 years abroad loses their right to vote. But they of course would recover it as soon as they return to live in the UK. In other countries, I think Denmark is an example, besides being a Danish citizen you have to be living in the country at the time to be able to vote with a few exceptions. I must admit I favour the rules of Denmark regarding residence plus citizenship as both being requisites to be able to vote. However, considering the high level of emigration from Scotland over the years, I think it should be a matter of wider discussion, what happens with those Scottish citizens by birth/ancestry who had to leave Scotland temporarily for work reasons. 

With regards to your wife, the countries I have looked at would allow the person to apply for citizenship after being married to a citizen and residing in the country for a certain length of time that is shorter than naturalisation for residence. To give you examples, in France is four years. In the UK and Germany is three years. In Italy is 2 years and in Spain is one year. For USA the process of acquiring citizenship for a spouse is lengthy and complex but it requires 3 years of residence in USA after the marriage before the application for citizenship can be submitted. Your wife would get the vote depending of the rules adopted by Scotland regarding the length of residence in Scotland required after the marriage prior to application for citizenship.

All countries I have seen have also the possibility of naturalisation by residence. These people are given full rights to vote. Here is where the length of time to be elegible needs to be established and that for me should be not less than 10 years.

Regarding children of people naturalised, in the countries I have looked at, if they are under 18 the application for naturalisation can be made as the same time as the parents . this is the case in the Uk as well. If they are older than 18 and the parents are just applying for citizenship, then the children would have to submit their application separately. Personally I don’t think this would apply to your children, because they would acquire citizenship through your own by ancestry.

All the above would be of course applicable for a referendum after Scotland becomes independent. Once Scotland takes full control of its affairs it can establish consulates and embassies around the world and people who lives abroad and were born in Scotland/are of Scottish ancestry from their parents/married to a Scottish citizen, would be able to apply for Scottish citizenship.

But for as long as Scotland is not independent, it cannot use consulates/embassies for example to study applications and grant citizenship to people living outwith Scotland. In this case, therefore, the requisite of residence besides citizenship becomes important for practical reasons. You live in Scotland and have Scottish ancestry, so you should have automatic right to vote under the franchises of most countries. From the franchises I have seen, if your wife has lived in Scotland after being married to you for a certain length of time (which varies with each country and which would have to be determined for Scotland), then she would also get the right to vote. The length of residence in that case is the crucial point. Because of your own ancestry, under the franchises of most countries in Europe your children would be able to apply for citizenship and the right to vote too,

MY COMMENTS

This is a useful debate and as Mia demonstrates there is no need for Scotland to be harsh or exceptional here. No the aim should be to clear up the current ridiculous and fiddled franchise that is clearly designed to dilute the voting power of native Scots in favour of incomers who are more likely to oppose Scottish Independence. To bring the Scottish franchise into line with what is common throughout Europe and the wider world. As Mia and the debate on this site has already demonstrated the discussion can be civilised and pleasant when people realise that it is our imposed current franchise that is the exception here, not the suggested alternatives.

I am, as always

Yours for Scotland

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24 thoughts on “WHO SHOULD VOTE? THE DEBATE CONTINUES AS MIA ANSWERS LES.

  1. Thanks for sharing Mia’s response to my question.

    It is a necessary debate if we are to avoid the traps of 2014 and Mia has more than demonstrated we need a different approach to the franchise this time round.

    Hopefully, someone in the political sphere has read this and takes it on board and makes it happen.

    Liked by 11 people

    1. ‘Hopefully, someone in the political sphere has read this and takes it on board and makes it happen.’

      I hate to blackpill – but there is nobody in the main stream political sphere, who is still a viable politician or political candidate, who will do so.

      What is happening in Scotland is happening all over the developed (European descended) world with the exception of the Brics countries.

      People need to get into their head that the people who run the international institutions, banks, much of the corporate world and our governments, much of our public bodies, academic institutions and others are enemies of indigenous peoples and are out to undermine their rights to a nation state that works for their benefit.

      A nation state, working for the benefit of its citizens, is the last thing our would be neo-liberal world empire (to call it one of several relevant names) wants.

      I asked on a different blog some years ago if people thought that it was a coincidence that governments all over the world start pushing the reality-disregarding trans issue (a complete vote loser) at the same time as international corporations and other global institutions?

      Obviously there is coordination. It’s too insane and self-destructive a policy to simply be a matter of virtue signalling.

      But here’s the thing – where you see these policies that ultimately have adult men in drag twerking in front of 6 years olds and young people who are confused with hormones being coerced into having themselves mutilated you will also see the denial of the reality of ethnicity and national heritage.

      The war on the European identity culminates in Critical Race Theory. (Critical theory being the product of a certain group of intellectuals working in Germany pre National Socialism). Anybody who doesn’t know what this is should take a dive into it and see that it does to ethnic Europeans what trans-ideology does to women.

      We do not have a political solution at this moment in time. A more fundamental movement needs to be formed that allows Scots to work to help each other with the important things from jobs, to food, to education, to the preservation of our culture and people regardless of the political situation and this requires us to develop an unapologetic in-group preference for survival – something that we normally generous Scots actually have some difficulty with.

      The system hates us and wants us to be confined to history. We need to act like that is reality, because it is.

      Liked by 9 people

  2. Big thanks again to Mia for the original post and yourself Iain for reposting her response to the question from Les.
    I believe this issue is the starting block for our new drive in regaining our country’s dignity and stealing our bright future from the iron grip of Westminster.
    A twitter exchange two days ago on this matter involving myself putting forward the statistics of the indigenous YES victory in 2014, met with claims of my use of the indigenous word being an attempt to undermine the indy cause?!
    Who knew.
    To counter this pish I actually gave a link to Mia’s original post on here but in doing so realised many Scots are very uncomfortable having these important discussions and the use of these correct terms regarding ethnicity as are many “new Scots”, but these discussions must be had, to enable our movement to evolve and be successful.
    Scotland is, and will continue to. be a very welcoming country but don’t treat us like a doormat. Our NuSNP have a lot to answer for, including clouded this discussion with their “civic nationalism” in my opinion and their lack of care on this subject, inspite of the glaringly obvious democratic demographic danger we are in.
    #IndigenousScots #NativeScots #SovereignScots #NewScots
    #letsgettae ✊🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

    Liked by 11 people

  3. In the summer of 2020, Michael Gove and Andrew Neil got their heads together to come up with a “cunning plan”:
    All Scots by birth, resident in the UK should vote in the next IndyRef.
    This was met with pretty much horror from our side of the fence. I wasn’t so sure.
    Gove and Neil’s proposition is based on “all the Scots ex-pats we know would vote No”. Well duh, of course everyone in their right wing, establishment, unionist bubble would vote No. This is an exercise in confirmation bias.
    My nephew and his mates in Bristol would crawl over broken glass to Gretna to vote Yes.

    Liked by 8 people

  4. If you think that a would-be independent nation could define its citizenship and electoral rights to systematically exclude any fraction of the people who are now living there, ‘you have got another think coming…..’, as one of the schoolteachers I remember from long, long ago used to remark…………..

    Like

    1. Well I suppose if we see a ‘nation’ as a people or not. Does a group of ethnically related people have the right to be recognised as such? If not, why not? If so then do these people have any claim to an ancestral homeland and a claim to the right to decide their own future?

      What gives a government the right, without asking the population, to legally and illegally import vast numbers of ethnically and culturally different people into any given Nation, while a media hostile to the same nation work to persuade the population of the horrors of nationalism all while the only people that aren’t allowed to think of themselves with a specific group identity are the natives themselves?

      What planet do you have to be on to think that this is anything other than a mass crime?

      What kind of twisted perverse mind do you have to have to think that it is the people coming here who are at risk of being ‘disenfranchised’ and not the Scots themselves?

      Liked by 7 people

    2. Read Mia’s earlier articles re current voting franchises within other countries in Europe and beyond. This has been covered, well, already.
      ( ps. ” soon to be “Independent nation.) 👍

      ..

      Liked by 3 people

  5. Home is where the heart is and in 2014 we had approximately 750,000 English people residing here is Scotland whose heart lay south of the border (admittedly not them all but the vast majority) , The English uniquely among all other people in the world have a natural bias against Scottish independence so their vote will always be to coin a phrase “tainted with apparent bias” it doesn’t make them bad people or anti Scottish it just makes them normal, and that if no other reason should make them ineligible to vote. Obviously we can’t single them out that would be unfair but we need a franchise that counters that bias fairly across the board for all nationalities like any other nation would have, civic nationalism is a fairytale concept that cost us our independence in 2014 we must make sure that doesn’t happen again Scotland is slowly dying in this union we can’t afford another fairytale referendum

    Liked by 8 people

  6. Sturgeons and the Nu SNPs answer to the rigged franchise is not to try and sort it , but to try and rigg a plebiscite election with a 50% ceiling of the vote ,which has never been reached, rather than a simple majority of seats. Cast your mind back to the Labour party bringing in the 40% rule for devolution they knew this was unachievable, so does Sturgeon and her Unionist cabal. Who are kicking the feet away from the independence movement at every opportunity.
    We are now in the ridiculous position of our jailers rioting in Westminster, the best time for us the inmates to escape.
    However the Nu SNP are sleeping again through design , pretending they dont hear the chaos. We will never get the key to the door from the SNP, we will need to unlock the door to freedom ourselves. Who could ever believe in UK,OK. Clearly Sturgeon and the Nu SNP does , Labour have risen like a Phoenix and taken over the SNP and enriched themselves in the process becoming part of the corupt Westminster game that keep us enslaved. The Nu SNP is a Unionist party through and through they dont even realise they have made themselves irrelevant and like Labour they will soon reap the cost of that Betrayal.
    Dissolve the Union.

    Liked by 9 people

    1. Totally agree Alistair
      I think it should be a tough decision! Show your birth certificate to get a voting card to vote in a Scottish vote. I genuinely believe that too many Non Scottish people moved to Scotland for the wrong reason and I liken them to English people moving to Cornwall, Devon, Wales etc. Made gains. I speak as a child of Scottish parents and grandparents who lives in England, sadly! England has tramped over Scotland for too long! The English Parliament (that’s what it is really) is there for the elites and it is unlikely to change!

      Liked by 2 people

  7. What about dual nationality? Switzerland does not allow dual nationality. A person is either a Swiss national or not. The Swiss govt. will support Swiss nationals wherever in the world they are. Their policy avoids individuals using a non-Swiss passport to gain entry to a country and then claim support from Switzerland should anything go wrong such as imprisonment.

    Liked by 3 people

  8. Clearly our franchise is fundamentally flawed when those born outwith Scotland and potentially not even living in Scotland can determine our constitutional future as an independent nation state. This highlights two entirely different constitutional identities for me. Those born in Scotland can claim to be Sovereign Scots and therefore their birthright is their sovereign identity in constitutional terms. Those born e.g. in England have a different constitutional identity, as English Subjects. Perhaps any future referendum or General Election should differentiate between the two identities? Any vote cast by a Sovereign Scot should be binding on our government and a vote cast by non Scots should be advisory? Future applications for Scottish citizenship can bestow voting rights accordingly subject to the criteria agreed by Sovereign Scots where we can choose whether to share our Sovereignty.

    Liked by 3 people

  9. The simplest way to fix the franchise is to use seats, not votes, in the Westminster plebiscite. Sturgeon has slammed the door shut on this without any democratic mandate to make the astounding changes she has.
    First task:
    Get rid of the nuSNP cabal. Either they are playing for the other team or they are gods greatest gift to the other team.

    Seriously: until this cabal has gone we are not going anywhere.

    Liked by 8 people

  10. Ay Clootie, “The UN must have some very good advice on this”, or, very good form? Ye kin tak yir pick whitivver wye!

    Liked by 3 people

  11. Born of Scottish born parents and living in Scotland thats it. You get the vote.
    If you have moved to Scotland from elsewhere, then after 10 to 15 years you get to vote in local elections only. You will never be allowed to vote in a general election. We need a few decades free from foreign interference to begin to get back on our feet we cannot allow tens of thousands of foreigner’s to decide not only our self determination but any other aspect of Scottish life.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. 3 years residence (same as tuition fees criteria) and if a tax payer then paying Scottish taxes. I think that works.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. Absolutely. I lived in Ireland for 20 yrs. it never occurred to me that I could have a vote of any kind. However, I can’t remember when exactly, I was given a voting card to vote in a local election. I felt it was a privilege!

      Liked by 1 person

  12. Everything can be discussed after we have become independent, to become independent only Scots born of Scottish born parents should qualify to take part in any process leading to that end.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Risks and rewards – maybe you are right Wullie but we need to retain inclusion and vibrancy – hearts and minds that love and value Scotland are what we need. This is part of the campaign that should already have begun with teaching in our own schools about our own history but the nuSNP prefer to push their sex agenda. Sturgeon is Scots born of Scots parents. So are the majority of the Orange Lodge. I’m not convinced this is a good path. It alienates parts of YES who do not deserve this rejection – and yes it stymies part of NO but at what social cost? The correct, inclusive path that fixes the franchise is seats, not votes. Is there to be no end to the harm Sturgeon does to Scotland? Lets get her to Helensburgh and gone.

      Like

      1. Hi Marionl99 This is factual, 53% of Scots voted for independence in .2014 referendum. 72 % of English settlers voted No, 57 % of other settlers voted No. If we had a constitutional voting franchise we would have been free in 2014. The figures are in Edinburgh University analysis of the 2014 Scottish independence referendum. No other country uses a local voting franchise for constitutional issues except Scotland. The vote was rigged and still is till the franchise is changed.

        Liked by 2 people

  13. How about a Scottish Citizenship test as the Tories brought in for the UK (incl language test)

    A few questions set in Scots.
    The ability to sing Flower of Scotland.
    A few tongue twisters with words ending in -CH.
    Selected Scottish History questions pre 1707.
    A blank map on which they have to position key Cities and Towns

    Before any frothing BritNat responds I’m being sarcastic about YOUR Narrow Nationalistic behaviour.Cricket and GSTQ.

    On second thoughts it may not be a bad idea!

    Liked by 2 people

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