IN RESPONSE TO MIA

Photo by Andre Moura on Pexels.com

A hard hitting comment from Lornacal.

Methinks yer ragin, Mia. We all are. As someone said on these threads, let’s have a complete breakdown of where all the charges that consumers pay go, on all energy bills : that will lead to anger such as Scotland has not seen before. Let’s have the CEO salaries and bonuses highlighted and the shareholders dividends, the government taxes and the lack of investment. English Water’s chronic lack of investment in plugging leaks, replacing pipelines, since privatisation, is a huge part of the problem for England and its water shortages. Climate change, and little run-off from the mountains and hills in winter, in the form of snow, is another.

We have known, since I was a bairn, that the seas are slowly rising, yet no investment in desalination plants whereby sea water could be turned into drinking water and water for crops, etc. Why? The answer is actually not hard to find: Thatcher allowed vast quantities of money to leave these shores and our economy, to be either hoarded in off-shore tax havens or re-invested in other economies. These corporations and individuals used people educated in the UK, free, or on a subsidised level, used UK workers, used UK equipment and plant, speculated in UK markets and their rise or downfall, then, when massive profits accrued, moved those monies out of the UK to its huge detriment.

Add to that, the selling off of all our national assets, both UK and Scottish, to the lowest bidder at bargain basement prices, and to the enrichment of the brokers and speculators, and we have what we have today. New Labour and the Lib Dems (the Tory Lites, who are, even as we speak, receiving huge backhanders from drugs companies and others), the now neoliberal SNP, are all equally guilty, but the Alan B’Stard Prize for sheer parasitical nerve goes to the Tories.

They have robbed and skimmed, cheated and debased everything about the UK as a whole, and have made it even worse for Northern and Midlands England and Scotland and Wales to sustain any kind of economic equilibrium or fairness, and if anyone dares to claim that we just have to endure this, he or she should be dragged through the streets on a hurdle, through the worst, sink estates in all of these, to come face-to-face with the people they have betrayed and harmed on an industrial scale. These psychopathic monsters need to be ousted completely from Scotland. Even now, they lack the self-awareness to understand their own plight and they will stand around, looking glaikit, like balloons that have been pierced with a very large, darning needle, when reality finally dawns. Which, of course, will be much, much too late to save them. Anger doesn’t cover it.

MY COMMENTS

Lorna is right, what she argues above is exactly what happened. Read it again, can anyone spot a single decision that brought meaningful benefits to the people of Scotland? Now read it and spot the benefits and opportunities to the spivs and speculators. Not difficult is it as whole swathes of public assets were suddenly available to them, gifted by shallow, greedy politicians always attracted to the quick buck, rather than long term benefits for their communities? So when people say “we are where we are” understand that is because they don’t want to confront the errors of the past. The question we should be asking is how do we reverse the damage? We need that answer very quickly if serious public disruption is to be avoided.

I am, as always

YOURS FOR SCOTLAND.

 BEAT THE CENSORS

The purpose of this blog is to advance Scottish Independence. That requires honesty and fair reporting of events and opinions. Some pro SNP Indy sites have difficulty with that and seek to ban any blogger who dares to criticise  the Party or its leader. As Yours for Scotland will not bend our principles and allow this attack on free speech to be successful we rely on our readership sharing and promoting our articles on a regular basis. This invalidates the attempts at censorship and ensures the truth gets out there. I thank you most sincerely for this important support.

FREE SUBSCRIPTIONS

Are available from the Home and Blog pages of this website. This ensures you are advised of every new article published on Yours for Scotland. Join the thousands already subscribed and be the first to get the news every day. You will be most welcome.

SALVO

This site has never sought donations, indeed we have a £3 limit alongside a message further explaining that donations are not required. That has now changed as the costs of running this blog for 2022 have already been raised in donation, therefore  for the remainder of this year  all donations made to this site will be forwarded to Salvo to help them educate Scots on the 1689 Claim of Right. This is vital work and we must all do what we can to support it.

31 thoughts on “IN RESPONSE TO MIA

  1. Yes, let’s get a grip and cease this talk of automatically gaining ownership of “our plentiful, cheap energy” after independence. That ship sailed. Thatcher sold the nationalised energy utilities and now the full extent of that malicious, psychopathic policy is about to hit home like never before. Were we, the Scots folk complicit in this? Well, we never voted for it so we can claim some innocence.
    It’ll take a great deal more than independence to address our soaring energy costs. This is not to degrade the importance of independence. Independence is a prerequisite without which even the possibility of change is beyond reach. Rather, this is a caution that we will enter our new, independent state with a default permanent managerial class that’s ideologically wed to finding “market” solutions to every problem. Under Westminster this issue is insurmountable. In an independent Scotland the problem is solvable but we’ll need a revolution to address the issue of our permanent managerial class.
    The specific example of tariff gouging at Hinckley Point C doesn’t relate exclusively to nuclear power. Rather, the problem relates to a fundamental imbalance in the relationship between State and private sector where major public infrastructure projects are concerned. As long as State ownership of infrastructure is ideologically off the table, the whip hand lies with the private power company during contract negotiations.
    At Hinckley Point C, EDF dragged negotiations out for years ‘till a looming, projected blackout of the grid forced the State to cave to outrageous generating tariffs.
    I believe the same tactics may be being deployed here with pump storage. Six schemes in Scotland are at planning stage (perhaps five and a half as Cruachan II uses the same header reservoir (and halves the generating duration of the “battery”)) but as far as I’m aware none have broken ground. Glenmuckloch on the Buccleuch estate has had planning permission since 2016 but remains permanently stalled.
    In a previous thread, I attributed the imbalance in negotiations to our politicians, Civil Servants and SPADS being exclusively drawn from the ranks of humanities graduates while the generating companies are represented by scientists and engineers. There is some truth to this, but fundamentally, even if the State was represented in negotiations by technically competent people, the whip hand remains with the private sector until State ownership is reintroduced as at least a possibility.
    Don’t underestimate the scale of the revolution required to address this problem. Our permanent managerial class of humanities graduates are a self sustaining Mafia. They recruit and promote amongst their own little clique. They are ideologically wed to “market” solutions because they’ve never known (or conceived of) an alternative. They’re ideologically wed to the “market” solution because their education leaves them unqualified to assume responsibility for operating a real business.
    They’ll scream blue murder at the thought of a two tier civil service where a chartered engineer is paid substantially more than a “gender politics” graduate. But them’s the rules of the market economy, technical competence comes at a price.
    Should’a done a proper course at Uni.

    Liked by 30 people

    1. Bravo, Vivian. Iain, this is definitely a blog post in itself.

      For everyone wishing the Scottish Government would get off it’s arse and fix the problems created by Westminster. They’re all cut from the same cloth. The cavalry ain’t coming.

      Liked by 18 people

    2. Agreed, Vivian. No one is even suggesting that resources to England should be cut off. Also agree that independence will never be the panacea for all ills, but it will be the start of the process to thinking for ourselves and making the very best, as far as that is possible, of our country. Even unfettered growth and expansion in many areas is now almost impossible, so that has to be dealt with, too. This is 2022, and we should be looking now at projects for the next century, not this one. It is long-range planning and investment by the state that we should be thinking about. Privatisation’s efficiency has always been a myth, just as state control has always been blamed for inefficiency, also a myth. In any realistic economy, we will need both, but all public utilities should be in the hands of the state. Investment in infrastructure must also be encouraged with tax breaks, but not to the extent that people with excess money can hive it off into off-shore accounts and tax havens, taking trillions out of the hard-pressed economy. Again, this was a Thatcher gift that has ended badly. The real problem with the UK is that plans are made and deals concluded that fit England and only England. This is understandable as it has, by far, a much bigger population that all the rest of us put together, but it means that we are always being forced to wear shoes, metaphorically speaking, that never fit, and we bear the pain. Far better now to run our own country in ways that suit us, and let them sort their own country out in ways that suit them. Independence will not be halted, whatever they try. The debate, though could get very nasty.

      Liked by 17 people

    3. As I have stated previously I love the common sense Vivian in your , Lorncal , Lorna Campbell , Clootie ,Mia , Gayle and many many more of our female contributors , sorry to not name you all , but the contributions and lived experiences you all contribute to the various blogs renders the vacuous output of all the parasites squatting in HR and WM to mere animal grunting noises
      The only disagreement I have with you Vivian and Lorncal is that you forgot to mention the working class and middle class greed monsters when you spoke about thatchers sales of the nationalised industries
      I worked for BAA when it was coming up for sale and like some others was vehemently opposed to the sale , but there were many who were desperate to buy shares in their own company and immediately capitalise on selling them on for a profit to speculators , this was the situation in lots of state owned companies , Scottish Gas , Scottish Power , british telecom , Shell , BP, british airways and many more , now look where that GREED has gotten the working classes they are at the MERCY of these corporate pirates most of whom are offshore registered foreign companies , EVERY company that was sold to speculators suffered forced redundancies and the devastation of their conditions of employment and wages

      Liked by 3 people

  2. Spot on Lorna:
    They have robbed and skimmed, cheated and debased everything about the UK

    This is a solid argument for the soft NO vote. It does not say ‘This is ours: Scotlands’ – they believe we should share and are brainwashed into believing that theft is sharing. This says ‘The UK is ruined by fetid, corrupt deplorables – it is gone and continuing to animate its corpse only benefits these deplorables’.

    Liked by 16 people

  3. A major problem in the debate so far is the effort going in to patch a broken system.

    We developed a grid system because a large system enabled the frequency and voltage to remain stable. The advances in electronics means I can have 240v / 50Hz from a car battery. However that massive grid has become the holy grail for many engineers.
    We developed a Three Phase Generation system not because it was the best but because it was cost effective ( 5 Phase would have been better but more expensive/heavier overhead lines.
    We encouraged power hungry devices such as Halogen Hobs. Many European houses have a main Circuit Breaker limiting households to 5 to 7 Kw capacity. This means less power hungry devices, less pylons, less generation.
    Electronic devices such as your TV draw almost half the power on standby as they do when switched on.
    We only limit kettles, irons, heaters etc to 3Kw because of the maximum load of the plug/socket outlet.

    Right now we have the technology to insulate homes so that they require no heating.

    The problem is;
    We have no long term plan.
    We have no investment
    We have no integrated energy policies

    At the moment we continue to improve the slide rule design while calculators are available.

    Liked by 20 people

    1. Spot on, Clootie. Governments are reluctant to make plans even a couple of years ahead, and it has to stop. As you say, we need long-term strategies that will see us into the next century, taking advances into account.

      Liked by 13 people

  4. Why are we not pushing hard such things like the amount we contribute to westminster and what we actually get back under thier barnett formula things like this should be on every billboard in Scotland for everyone to see highlight everything that is going south and being stolen from Scotland we need to make everyone aware.

    Liked by 17 people

  5. Sounds to me that Sturgeon saw this coming using Westminster law to stop angry Scot’s from demonstrating outside of the Scottish parliament. Bought and Sold!

    Liked by 15 people

  6. “But them’s the rules of the market economy, technical competence comes at a price.” Yes, so we’re told, Viv, but compassion and common-sense come for nothing.Thatcher was an Oxbridge educated chemist of some description, but that didn’t subdue her sociopathic tendencies or prevent her from publically championing every last tenet of free-market ideology.

    Liked by 13 people

    1. Tories have little compassion to spare for the oiks, erich. It is only a hundred years ago or so that many of them actually believed that working-class people were put on Earth for their benefit, to be exploited and stripped of all humanity.

      Liked by 11 people

      1. Well, Marion, if that little gathering in Perth was anything by which to judge, they haven’t changed one iota. A hundred years ago, they showed their contempt openly. Nowadays, they are slightly more circumspect if only because the oiks now have the vote.

        Liked by 9 people

      2. I have just heard that the 2 Tory leadership candidates have ducked meetings with their own disability groups. Both groups wanted to ask them questions about how they were going to deal with the cost of living situation and how they would protect disabled people but they are not going to attend.
        Instead, they are sending one of their MPs to answer for them.
        As far as Scotland is concerned, the new Tory Leader and therefore prime minister will be selected by what they tell us is the 10,000 Tory members in Scotland.
        So, that means whoever wins that race to the bottom will have been chosen by 0.182% of the population of Scotland – democracy in action – or should that be democracy inaction!

        Liked by 6 people

      3. It is all building up to a crescendo this winter, arthor49, and we will emerge in the New Year with a far better idea of where we are going. I really can’t see it being with the SNP. Imagine if we had gone in 2016 at the very latest: yes, we would be not be in a good place yet, but there would be hope that we would reach it. Brexit holed us all below the water line, and, now, we are actually drowning. Independence might not have been Utopia, but we would be seeing light at the end of the tunnel now, bobbing on our raft. Instead, the dark side is encroaching at a rapid rate. Firstly, thank the NO voters and the Tory/Labour/Lib Dem axis; secondly, thank the SNP who have sat on their hands, blinking in the dark; and, thirdly, thank ourselves who have elected these people back in. We will reach independence, but it will not be in any way that anyone has foreseen thus far, and it will be extremely bloody, in the metaphorical sense. We are rapidly reaching tipping point where we will have nothing to lose.

        Liked by 5 people

      4. Sorry to say that you are probably right and that it will be a very messy affair and with no help forthcoming from the Nu SNP towards self-determination the options left to the people of Scotland become extremely limited to the point of civil disobedience and taking their struggles on to the streets.
        As an ex-trawlerman I’m not too keen on your analogy of being holed below the waterline but I know that you mean!

        Liked by 3 people

  7. All those who voted Tory and allowed the handover of public assets to private companies and corporations for a fraction of their true value should think on what they have done. However, I doubt that will be the case, but they will probably be among those squealing loudest about the “cost of living crisis”.

    A couple of days ago, I heard the CEO of Scottish Power state that the government (didn’t say which one) should double what they are providing the public to help cope with the ever-increasing energy costs. As I was driving at the time, my initial thought was good that he is supporting additional help for people struggling to pay their energy bills.

    However, I had driven only a few more yards when I realised where that additional money would end up! So, not quite such an altruistic chappie after all!

    Liked by 11 people

    1. The bills need to be broken down into their constituent elements so that we can all see what goes where, and when. The perception that to give shareholders large dividends and CEOs even larger salaries and bonuses is necessary, is hogwash. These are all out of all proportion to investment risk and to proper, managed scales of remuneration, arthor49.

      Liked by 14 people

      1. That has already been done Lorncal. Bills used to break down what the elements of the bill were . It was a load of absolute rubbish.

        I recall bringing the issue up with my MP who raised it with the regular and surprise surprise my next quarterly bill, as would all the others, showed different cost elements and different percentages.

        On the bigger scale, try and get behind company accounts, stratos ownership, transfer pricing, offshoring profits, inter company trading. Getting behind where the money goes is absolutely opaque.

        In fact, simpler issue. Look at the corporate company structure of the care home industry and where the trading goes and or is channelled through around the world.

        Good idea. But you’d just get fed mince.

        Liked by 5 people

  8. Power from the Glens, Power for the Glens was a tag line from the 50s and 60s and in essence it was true.

    The state, or a state owned company or board, built power generating assets and the power was then sold to the populace at whatever price the politicians thought appropriate.And if the state decided to make an operating surplus or not then it did as it saw fit.

    But in the 70s and 80s that all changed. Under the risible guise of people’s privatisations Thatcher sold off the state owned assets. Not to the people as was generally purported but to the corporates whose sole interest is corporate profit. And if you saw Sid, as one privatisation ad ran, you were to tell him.

    And look at it now, all of our natural assets sold off and corporate money making now the only agenda in town, and all wrapped up in corporate trading structures that mask the true wealth being extracted from a hapless populace now struggling to even heat and light their homes. Poverty in a land of plenty.

    Oh how how how we should reflect. Our gas and oil was worth nothing. It delivered immense wealth for other countries but not for Scotland. And our hydro. Blessed with lochs, mountains and glens our natural environment was perfect for hydro generation, with additionally, the benefit of pump storage to store huge quantities of base load power from other sources when demand was low. Cheap electricity one would have thought. After the cost of the dam, the pipework and the turbine construction, it would certainly seem so. But no somehow it isn’t. Well not for the populace of Scotland.

    And ditto gas. We were blessed with lots of that. They even piped it out of our waters direct to storage caverns constructed in the North of England. What benefit then from our gas.

    And now wind. Unlike our oil and gas that we were told was worth little, and was due to have run out around ten years ago, wind is in a different category again. We, or should I say the corporates might be building lots and lots of wind farms, but we should understand that wind energy is really no energy st all. No, we should realise that because the wind doesn’t blow all the time, it’s reallynin truth no good. And that sadly is the latest myth to be visited on poor poverty stricken Scotland. All that no good wind power, that will feed the national grid, inter-connectors, and allow power to be shared around, no good, no good at all. Why do they bother. Moreover, in Scotland, wind power, or any other source of power, can even be stored by pumping water up a mountain in times of surplus, to thereafter run it back down the mountain when needed, This of course bringing us back to Power from the Glens but not For the Glens, and why a start is just about ready to be made on the Coire Glas scheme in the Great Glen, and a scheme that will double the ENTIRE UK’s pump storage capacity. And this is only one scheme out of another half a dozen planned Scottish pump storage schemes waiting on the shelves of the corporates to be commenced.

    Ah what value Scotland’s natural resources. None it would seem.Well not for most of us.Fuel poverty in a land blessed with resources. Gas has gone up because the wholesale price of gas has gone up. Priorly until about a year ago around half, or £500, was apparently the wholesale cost of a households heating and lighting bill. Now with the shortage of gas and the huge wholesale price surges, the average household bill predicted at over £4,000 a year by next spring will be composed of around £2,5000 of wholesale costs. And so, with Scotland blessed with gas, oil, hydro and wind, who is making money, big money. We must ask Sid that if we can find him!

    But let us turn away from gas, oil, wind and water. Let us turn to aggregates,and the little matter of Glensanda quarry near Oban. Hidden away from view unless you are a sailor, Glensanda is one of Europe’s biggest granite super queries. With coastal access, the quarry has over the last thirty years shipped nearly 300 million tonnes of granite to markets around the world. Texas USA, all over the EU, the channel tunnel, the HS2, it is a big export worth a lot of money. And, according to reports, there are another 760 million tonnes of identified reserves to go. And so, who may you ask owns this super quarry that is literally demolishing a Scottish mountain. Well not Scotland.

    Seems it was found by an English man some thirty years ago whilst on a sailing holiday. Mr Yeoman was his name, Foster Yeoman was his Company, prior to him selling out to the absolutely huge global Swiss registered Aggregstes Industries. Should we be surprised?

    But there you have it, we’re dismantling a Scottish mountain, over a billion tonnes of it in fact. What benefit from it then. It’s a good question. Probably like the oil and the gas and the hydro and the wind, not a lot.

    But one last thing, and this is maybe a huge question. Since the commencement of nuclear power generation a permanent site to store high level radioactive waste for the next hundred thousand years has never been identified. Still hasn’t but Scotland, although they will not say where, has always been a preferred choice. And so, with deep water coastal access, granite strata, could Glensanda or similar be the plan. It’s a secret, but with all that high level nuclear waste being temporarily stored waiting for a National ( Scottish or British ) and with England’s new fleet of reactors being built, I certainly would bet against using a site like Glensanda for multi millennia nuclear waste storage.

    Scotland the land that just keeps giving – away!

    Liked by 13 people

    1. In praise of pump storage.
      Thanks to the decimation of manufacturing industry, there’s a hell of a lot of buckshee energy from inflexible, renewable energy (primarily wind) at night. Crucially, every night.
      Perhaps as electrical cars proliferate this will reduce.
      Pump storage has a number of advantages over other proposed storage methods. It’s mature technology (Ffestiniog is nearly 60 years old). Efficiency losses are known and relatively low (in comparison to other exotic proposals such as compressed air reservoirs). Operating costs are low. Significant Capital costs can be offset by unmatchable lifespan (Ffestiniog again).
      The Chinese are betting big on pump storage.
      For schemes up and running > 1,000 MW, China has (44GW) 42% of global capacity.
      For schemes under construction > 1,000MW, China has another 52 GW soon to be realised.
      Of course highly technocratic, command economy China could have got it wrong while our profit driven, disaster economic model got it correct, but I know who I’d put money on.

      Liked by 11 people

    1. It is all part and parcel of independence, thesnpleftme. Poverty, no control over our resources, the ‘trans’ issue, cuts in tax for the wealthy, short-term plaster policies… all are part of the overall problem that drives the independence movement. That is why there is no point in campaigning if we do not target those who suffer most under the present system and regime. By all means, appeal to the middle-class waverers, but it is the mass of the population that is suffering most and who will vote for change, if organised. We need the middle-class supporters and waverers to direct their energies into independence, but the vote for independence this time around will come, initially, from the working-class and from women. It really saddens me that people just chant, “we need independence first” without understanding why and how we get it. Educated, middle-class people will play their part, of course, but mobilisation of those who feel disenfranchised is the key.

      Liked by 5 people

  9. What doesn’t stack up for me, is how SNP MPs can serve on defence committees. There has to be an appreciation from the U.K. ministry of defence that England’s energy security – and therefore national security, now more than ever, depends on Scotland.

    Liked by 4 people

  10. Brilliant post Lorna , that get’s right to the core of the malaise , the poison , injected by the Thatcher-era Tory Party and is now endemic throughout every other UK Party ( the only Politician of recent times to attempt to counter it ie J Corbyn was mercilessly savaged / character- assassinated by every MSM and Establishment source , disgustingly , from within his own Party also ) : the ideological Darwinism of * Free * Market economics , fetishising of Privatisation and erosion of whatever was once understood as a Social Contract . A process about to go into overdrive with the shoe-in of vacuous , any-way-the-wind-blows L Truss as next Prime Idiot .

    Two front page splashes demonstrate what her leadership will be all about ” Truss Promises New Laws To Smash Strike Misery ” : ” City Watchdogs ( LOL ! ) face big overhaul in Truss’s attack on ” Technocrats ” ” . Aw aye , and the perennial Tory obsession – cutting taxes .

    Meanwhile * World is my oyster * Sturgeon swanning about hawking her Post – Scotland services to the lowest common denominator highest bidder . Emetic .

    The grit in that * oyster * will be the growing awareness among her former supporters of her abject failure to progress what SHOULD have been her true raison d’etre – the liberation of our country from the shackles of Union and – sooner or later – the exposure of the true nature of her character and the immense damage she has done to our country .

    No amount of Vogue front pages or Guardian puff-pieces will be able to camouflage the truth when THAT levee breaks

    Liked by 5 people

    1. Robert Hughes spot on and a comfort for common sense. This blog is really informative. How do we get it out there?
      Family in Vienna and Mayo know more of Scottish politics than most Scottish people. WTAF?

      Liked by 3 people

      1. Aye that’s the problem – or part of it , getting more accurate information and truthful , un-deluded views like we find here out to more of our people : too many still swallowing MSM propaganda and the deceptions of the current SNP

        Liked by 5 people

  11. twathater: absolutely agree. Many of us were saying that, if ordinary people bought into these companies, they would soon become monopolies and all would pay the price. Most of the small energy companies have been swallowed up, and the shareholders are no longer Mr and Mrs Joe Bloggs, but off-shore interests, speculators and others who owe no allegiance to the UK. I don’t believe for one blessed minute that the Tories didn’t know this would happen: of course, they did. All the lies about encouraging people to invest in their own futures and in the country was hogwash. They appealed to greed and and greed answered. Unfettered capitalism will always look for the best profit margin and the least output, ergo, cut-backs and redundancies, whole areas of public services doomed to collapse and/or withdrawal. An apt name for it all is ‘theft on a grand scale’ or ‘defrauding the public’.

    The only way we could ever actually afford to take all these assets back is if we simply take them back – no payments, no deals, no recompense. Would that happen? No, of course not. So the UK economy and its services will continue to shrink. No politician has ever had the guts to reverse Thatcherism although that is, in reality, the only solution. By the way, lorncal and Lorna/Lorn Campbell are the same person – me. Thank you for your kind words. I wish I had a magic wand, twathater, and we could be away tomorrow, that Thatcherism was given the order of the boot and that people would stop harming others out of pure greed and a desire for power or out of perversity. But, alas!

    A bit off-topic, but I think we have to be really vigilant now because we might well have agents provocateurs among us who are trying to derail us by causing trouble and egging others on. Not saying there definitely are, but the Unionists and Westminster, not to mention the British State, would certainly stoop to this. I also think that there are trolls who come on to these threads, too, to try and discover what we are thinking in order to pass on information and thwart us. I have noticed that letters and articles talking down SALVO/SSRG and other constitutional groups and approaches are appearing regularly now.

    Liked by 3 people

  12. I agree with you wholeheartedly re trolls and usurpers , we even have unionists permeating the comment section of wings , not that it would ever happen but I would have no problem just taking back our resources from the pirates who have stolen them , they have made ample profits for their investors to minimise the pain

    Liked by 2 people

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: