Bishops urge Scottish Government to reject “Conversion Therapy” report

Posted byiainlawson27Posted inUncategorizedTags:, , ,

Bishops urge Scottish Government to reject “Conversion Therapy” report.

Monday 16 January 2023

Responding to the publication of the Scottish Government’s ‘expert’ advisory group on “Ending Conversion Practices”, Scotland’s Catholic Bishops have issued the following statement:

The Church is pastorally sensitive to the experience of people who identify as homosexual. They are to be met with compassion and particular care and support in the challenges that come with all that life brings them. The Church supports legislation which protects people from physical and verbal abuse. The advice of the expert committee, however, seeks to extend the scope of such legislation in a way that is gravely concerning in regard to freedom of religion and expression.

A fundamental pillar of any free society is that the state recognises and respects the right of religious bodies and organisations to be free to teach the fulness of their beliefs and to support, through prayer, counsel and other pastoral means, their members who wish to live in accordance with those beliefs. 

The conclusions of the Scottish Government’s ‘expert’ advisory group on “Ending Conversion Practices” are gravely concerning. If accepted, legal counsel has warned that they would outlaw pastoral care, prayer, parental guidance and advice relating to sexual orientation, expression of sexual orientation, gender identity and gender expression, other than that which is deemed by the state to constitute “affirmative care”. 

These proposals, if passed by the Scottish Parliament, would criminalise mainstream religious pastoral care, parental guidance, and medical or other professional intervention relating to sexual orientation, unless it was approved by the State as acceptable. 

It could criminalise the Church’s teaching about God’s creation of the human person as male and female and the meaning of sex as within marriage, and that anyone who proposes this teaching to someone with same sex attraction or gender identity issues would face sanctions. This would apply even if the person with these issues wanted help to follow Church teaching since this law would say they cannot consent to this teaching. 

Priests could be banned from working in Scotland, the Church could lose its charitable status, and classroom and pastoral teachers could lose their jobs. There would be uncertainty about the future of Catholic schools and children could be taken away from their parents. As the first educators of their children, parents alone have the right to advise and guide their children in such matters.

Moreover, the ‘expert’ advisory group is unclear what is meant by the term ‘conversion practices’ and this will create a chilling effect and may criminalise advice or opinion given in good faith. 

Existing legislation rightly protects all people from physical and verbal abuse, however, these proposals go much further. 

In urging the Scottish Government to reject this report, we are drawn to the recent words of  Pope Francis who has pointed out: “There is a risk of drifting into what more and more appears as an ideological totalitarianism that promotes intolerance towards those who dissent from certain positions claimed to represent “progress”, but in fact would appear to lead to an overall regression of humanity, with the violation of freedom of thought and freedom of conscience.”

MY COMMENT

I am not Catholic but I recognise the Churches right to be concerned as once again the Scottish Government seem to be prepared to dismiss concerns that their actions are infringing on the rights of others in society as they seek to bully and cajole those who oppose their GRR legislation that opens up so many dangers for women in society in especial. It is a huge mistake to seek to criminalise those who oppose this legislation and to seek to intimidate them into silence. People will not be intimidated and I welcome this statement in favour of free speech, thought and practice. That it is a Scottish Government led by the SNP that is responsible for this near fascist intimidation is a matter for great shame amongst the entire Yes community. This is a very serious warning that could have serious impact in stopping Catholic and other Christians from supporting an Independent Scotland. It is a hugely damaging mistake and opens the door for Westminster interfering and being welcomed by sizeable groups in Scotland for doing so. So apart from being wrong it is also an appalling mistake in strategic terms in winning Independence as well.

I am, as always

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49 thoughts on “Bishops urge Scottish Government to reject “Conversion Therapy” report”

  2. I am not religious but I believe in the rights of people to freely choose their faith as long as it’s not harmful to others. It’s like this is all been coordinated to do exactly what you wrote about in your comment Iain. Fear is a liar and sadly quite a lot of the people here give in to it and gravitate towards those who don’t want a better Scotland for the people. They are looking at the things being inflicted here but taking their eye from what is being inflicted upon the English public too.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. This is a mistake in my opinion. If I wanted to do everything in my power to try and stop what is going to bring Scotland and the people their freedom I would make the most awful policies so that people wouldn’t want to be free under such governance. I would flood their minds with how terrible and scary their country is and unsafe and so they need the UK government to step in to protect them. Make them forget about the draconian measures the UK government inflicted, the corruption the contempt, the plundering of resources etc. I would have people start online hashstag for Tory politicians and those who oppose the Scottish people and our sovereignty to believe that they are false saviours. Have them forget about the scandals surrounding those people.

      Liked by 4 people

    2. I couldn’t agree more, Iain. We are seeing this in the schools as gay and trans propaganda is now everywhere with their silly, meaningless little flags popping up all over the place. And you are right to use the words fascist and totalitarianism. Imagine all this one-way debate were to apply to the promotion of a certain political party? There would rightly be outrage. There is widespread concern amongst teachers on this as many don’t support this. Some have strong religious beliefs but others, like Biology teachers object on scientific grounds. But they remain silenced as many feel they will be discriminated against and singled out. Politically, and bearing in mind there was cross-party support for the GRA. the only party speaking out seems to be the small Scottish Family Party. Coming from a family which formerly supported the SNP at elections we will be lending our vote to the SFP next time. Social engineering? No thanks.

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  3. I am not religious and often find much to criticise about religious intolerance but I cannot fault the response by Catholic Bishops to the extremist folly of the ‘Conversion Practices’ Report. I also congratulate the Catholic Church in Scotland in being the first institution to stand up to these alarming all-encompassing proposals which, as they correctly state, removes the rights of parents over their own children. apart from the unprecedented control being given to the state over the thinking of everyone in society.

    This report comes from the wilder reaches of beliefs about society which seeks to go further than anything which could be described as acceptable in a democratic society. You don’t have to be a believer in any religion to recognise that tyrannies always seek to proscribe every aspect of life. ( Ironically there are very good reasons why people perceive in this authoritarian belief system something akin to religion in its absolutism – almost like the medieval fanaticism of religions themselves in the past which led to violent persecution and policing of belief and thought. )

    Despite that past, I could see that there must come a confrontation from representatives of certain religions. The conservatism of the Catholic religion has saved them from the pusillanimity of certain other religions ( In contrast, the recent pronouncements of the Anglican Church at its highest levels endorsing Stonewall policies was an appalling surrender of any theological or intellectual thinking to a distorted view of ‘tolerance.’)

    As a confirmed atheist and secularist I find myself in the peculiar position of commending the Catholic Church for emphasising certain fundamental truths about freedom of thought which should be important to anyone who wants to live in a democratic society not dominated by beliefs which demand uncontested acceptance . I also find myself quoting a Pope, no less, in his criticism of ‘what more and more appears as an ideological totalitarianism that promotes intolerance towards those who dissent from certain positions claimed to represent “progress”, ‘ (Ironic though, considering the history of the papacy and its claim of infallibility but here he happens to be right. I just wish more people in authority would speak out instead of vacillating. )

    Liked by 9 people

    1. Aye Peter, I agree but when we are not in a position to try help people to strengthen their mind it’s difficult to reach them. The church on the other hand is. They conducted a prayer vigil in George Square in regards to Ukraine and Russia. Nothing stopping the various religious places to unite people of faiths to be strong.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. If we look at things logically, the government have did this without our permission, we have politicians on film telling us they are just getting started etc. Posts of them trying to show aff, flag waving and such, blocking people,we should note it all, screenshots. Who is starting the save us Alistair Jack nonsense, suggesting that we are not capable of doing it ourselves. We have the evidence right in front of us. It’s just question of being able to be strong and believe that the issue is, they are scared of losing their comfortable lives at the expense of everyone else.

        Liked by 4 people

    2. I am of the view that, if it ever unhappily happens, our disintegrating personality’s final desperate recourse reveals to us our actual “religion” (ie our ultimate point of existential cohesion), for better or worse.

      Liked by 1 person

    3. At some point this was settled on as the universal wedge issue. The apparatchiks of Western hegemony push identity politics while the East personified by Alexander Dugin push “traditional values”.
      Any rational examination of the arithmetic would conclude that the East will come out on the correct side of history. The West must be blinded by their hubris. Hell mend them.
      I’m no apologist for Dugin. He has some very odd, fundamentalist ideas.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. Might find myself somewhere in the east to go that’s women friendly and free from this madness. Haha it’s certainly looking mair attractive but they have their own flaws as well however this nonsense is enough to say see ye when you sort this crap oot.

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  4. I am 100% behind the stance of the Catholic Church on this issue. Where, one might ask are our Protestant Churches?

    Liked by 7 people

  5. “Moreover, the ‘expert’ advisory group is unclear what is meant by the term ‘conversion practices’ and this will create a chilling effect and may criminalise advice or opinion given in good faith.”

    This is the most important part of the statement imho. I would hope everyone would be against practises that use blackmail, torture, brainwashing et al to change a person in any way. That’s the type of thing that the term conversion practise originally referred to.

    Explorative therapy is NOT conversion therapy. Indeed unquestioning affirmation, which is the only thing this proposal would allow, is itself a conversion therapy. Previously watchful waiting for gender dysphoria demonstrated that in the majority of cases it not only resolved but approx. 90% of affected people were gay, lesbian or bisexual. Or as whistle-blowers at the Tavistock darkly commented “we are transing away the gay”.

    Ps I know I said I’d write a piece on the subject of GRRB but every time I thought I’d finished it, yet another thing happened which needed addressed. Between committees dismissing amendments, Holyrood sitting until past midnight, SNP rebellions, Merkins, section 35 objections et al, it was like keeping up with a runaway train. Anyway I’ve shelved it. Apparently Westminster will make a decision on whether to allow GRRB to stand and receive Royal Assent by Wednesday.

    Liked by 3 people

    2. I hope you write it.

      This is a good piece and shows that a neutral approach to gender dysphoria while providing psychiatric support to deal with the distress caused may lead many young people to desist from seeking gender identity change as they mature.

      Of course, this kind of approach may run foul of legislation on conversion therapy.

      https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/gender-distress-treatment-in-young-people-a-highly-charged-debate-1.4602455

      Like

  7. Just noticed a big elephant trap waiting for legislation based on the proposals from this report and that is the issue of Catholic schools. The Church’s teaching on homosexuality has been opposed to society’s attitude as expressed through law but since it is church teaching the state has regarded it as an issue for Catholics and is therefore a matter of faith. Many non-Catholics might not endorse their attitude but it has been accepted by the state as freedom of religious thought.

    However, in the paragraph beginning ‘ It could criminalise the Church’s teaching…’ there is a problem waiting for any legislation in relation to Catholic schools. Although state-run, Catholic schools have been free to teach Catholic theology within the schools. I think that the so-called experts who drew up the proposals did not take into account that their ideas would run head-on into a major obstacle. The Catholic Church might prove to be a more formidable opposition than they have so far encountered in any other established institution.

    Liked by 5 people

  8. Join up on the American website Gab and you will see a lot of posts from folk thinking they are crusaders and they do a lot of toughening up guys, have women in the home and having to be a certain way. They will tell you it’s Christian Nationalism or nothing. We are not used to such right wing extremism and I would be very surprised if anyone here would be either. America has all this happening over there, drag queen posts with children etc.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I left it but I observed a lot. Quite a big Anglo-American influence on there. You have the likes of Hopkins and Farage etc being revered. I actually feel sorry for the folk in the USA who swallow anything they are selling. We had people making accounts pretending to be famous Scottish folk posting right wing stuff.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. There were posts of hatred in regards to gaels in certain areas of the USA, they completley ignore the Native Americans rights, obviously the guy who runs it supports the right to freedom of speech but it’s eye opening in the sense it gives you a feeling of where things are coming from that impact upon others.

        Liked by 1 person

    2. Yes, I have the feeling that extremism creates its mirror image. I also have the feeling that the intransigent trans ideology will create a very unpleasant backlash. Those of us who simply believe in rationality and biological fact might find ourselves wedged in the middle between two opposing polarities neither of which we can support.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Look how it’s had an impact upon Scotland at this moment in time. I am not against trans people as long as they are adults have had all proper support and care that they need before going for it. It was easily sorted, create safe places for them, add a new section for sports, there was already protection in place as there is for other people. Children are different and the government knows that. They change their minds a lot of times, are easily manipulted and they are too young to decide to change their sex. I went to work with children to genuinely help them, there were times I found myself standing up to people who were not very nice and we fell on difficult times for speaking up for them but you have to not give a feck for yourself because you are the adult and they need our protection at all costs and that’s why I stayed so long as I did. Went home greetin sometimes, you end up unwell fae the stress and wished I could have done more, lengthy calls with my nice colleagues who felt the same because they were subjected to being bullied for protecting the weans as well. If I had a child of school age now, I would be removing them.

        Liked by 2 people

      2. I seen how things and good people can easily be coerced into doing the wrong thing. It usually starts with one or two who are insecure in their abilities so they bully people, children in this case, they might not be able to cope with situations and rather than admit they need help they might do things that are against the law or policy. Others who do the same almost form a club, I saw folk who did so receive promotion although they couldn’t cope above older more experienced people who followed the correct procedure. Those who speak up get the Joanna Cherry treatment but we decided to start confronting them to their faces, so they try the lies, greetin and other things to detract from the fact that they are doing wrong. Those who join in are afraid to get the same treatment and that’s an experience that I learned over twenty years. The facilities for reporting and accountability are very poor. This is probably true over many sectors.

        Liked by 1 person

  9. Ms Sturgeon is apparently ‘outraged’at the possibilty of the Westminster Government interfering in Scottish politics by threatening to refuse consent to the GRA in its present form,t hough she must have foreseen that the terms of that measure and the subsequent Conversion Therapy policy would put her on a collision course with the UK Government in London.
    i have to say that I am equally, if not more outraged, disgusted and angry that she did not choose a different npolicy to challenge Westminster’s interference, namely the proposal to set up ‘Free Ports’ in Scotland. Where is her outrage at this imposition by Westninster on the affairs of Scotland by planning to set up areas which will be an invitation to launder money, avoid taxation and deprive our workers of rights to be paid a living wage, to have holiday and sick pay and not be subjected to ‘Fire and Hire’ practices.
    This is a measure which will benfit only big busimess and rich Tories who see a chance to make a lot of money (which they will then hide away in tax havens) while exploiting Scottish workers, our land and resources with zero benefit to us.
    Ms Sturgeon, I fear you have got your priorities badjy wrong

    Liked by 10 people

  10. The Sturrells and their cohort are dead set on destroying the fabric of Scotland’s society , particularly gaslighting biological reality.

    Liked by 8 people

    1. Those two words, biological reality, are the words which will come up time and time again. I am hearing them on TV and Radio programmes and the trans lobby have no answer. They are, in the end, ideologically bankrupt.

      Liked by 2 people

  12. I look forward to the first minister dismissing the views of the Catholic church as not valid. Then she can move onto who to piss off next.

    Liked by 7 people

    1. A lot of effort has gone into courting the Catholic vote in the last two decades and it has largely been successful. All of that will disappear like snow off the dyke. This is another surefire vote-loser. Sturgeon is on a path to political suicide. The sooner she goes the better.

      Liked by 1 person

  14. Women are Men and Men are Women. What next will Sturgeon and her Unionists cabal do to sabotage the independence movement. Piss of Women and 50% of the Vote is then against you . Is it not time for a coup to overthrow this charlatan and her sham independence party. If the SNP ,MPs and MSPs had any metal they would have shown her the door long ago. We need independence and need it now . Sturgeon selling the windmills at a knock down price to her Unionists pals was bad enough, now she gives away Freeport’s letting our colonial masters control of the access to our only oil refinery at Grangemouth not a very clever move.
    Dissolve the Union.

    Liked by 5 people

  15. YA DANCER! The GRRB has been blocked. Up yours Sturgeon; for the first time in my 72 years the bastard Tories have done something I can agree with.

    Liked by 4 people

    1. That’s exactly how I feel, and that’s the depth of hatred we’ve arrived at for the out-of-control maniacs in Holyrood – the Scottish Cesspit – when even the Tories are looked upon as saviours. Not deluding ourselves, we know what Tories are capable of, and they’re still second in the queue behind the SNP.

      So, nearing the end game as far as NS and her gang of thugs are concerned, we’re right back to the start again, with Alex – and whoever else pro-independence – to deliver Scotland.
      Bring it on.

      Liked by 6 people

    2. You are both correct, chaps. This is great news. Sturgeon and her, as Alex Neil would say, nodding donkeys, have been humiliated not just beaten. We should now get the message out there that all this woke drivel is bullsh*t. It defies science and is against women’s rights. Shame on our cowardly politicians for supporting it in thefirst place. Hee Haw!

      Liked by 1 person

  16. I am no friend of the Gender bill however I think Sturgeon is playing a twisted game here .Westminster are trying to acert their sovereignty over us in an attempt to make Westminster look Supreme and us subservient, we have already had it with their sham colonial court ruling now they are trying to reaffirm this. Sturgeon will help them every inch of the way. Expect direct rule and the abolition of Hollyrood shortly. Then we will be stitched up in a new constitution with Starmer and Browns Red Torys turning our nation into a region of England.
    Dissolve the Union.

    Liked by 2 people

  17. So Westminster has stepped in to quash the Scottish Parliament’s GRC bill.

    And what an opportunity Sturgeon has laid on their doorstep to do so, to undermine the prentendy Parliament.

    With the GRC legislation not just out of step with the general public, but absolutely abhorred by most, there are few who will mourn the intervention to strike down this bill.

    And there was more too headed for the Scottish legislature.

    And so with Westminster for the first time ever having struck down a Scottish Bill they will do it again.

    As for the First Minister she’s been shown up as piece of toilet paper soon to be flushed down the pan along with her useless clique.

    And that however is a good thing because without her, and her useless clique that that will let us get our movement back to where it was in 2014. Devolution is over. Independence is the thing.

    Liked by 4 people

  18. Just out of the shower and checked my chromosomes while I was washing them and still XY by the looks of things. How an elected MSP can stand up in public and say you do not know your sex until you have your chromosomes checked and still be in a job is beyond me.

    Liked by 2 people

  19. If you had told me 10 years ago that I would be pleased with a Tory intervention on a Holyrood Bill I would have laughed at you……this is Sturgeon’s legacy. She has become a control freak imposing HER views on Scottish society. I welcome theWestminster intervention for the simple reason that it reflects ancient wisdom….”The enemy of my enemy is my friend”. If this puts a stop to the current madness then I welcome it. I do fear it will be short lived though as Labour will probably bring in a UK wide version of the TransCult New World Order.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Apologies to All, This is what I meant to say the first time can some one delete the other comments. I hear what you are saying, but that just plays into UK’s hands I’m afraid, Ross, Sarwar and Jack have won already with that attitude, I’m not 100% happy with the bill, particularly the age change, but this is small potatoes compared to the bigger picture which is an independant Scotland, we are now divided over this, they have won already.

      This latest section 35 veto is nothing more than a political football, they don’t give a toss about folks rights, Ross and Sarwar both saw this bill as an opportunity to score points against the SNP, no other reason, the Salmond Scandal, Liegate, Ferries weren’t working, so lets weaponise this. No reasons to stay in the Union, no insight, nothing, just attack, playing the person and not the ball.

      Are we meant to believe that the UK Government has veto’d this bill because they care about peoples rights? The same government that took ScotGov to court to affect the rights of innocent children? the same Government who have passed a bill to stop protest, and are trying to pass a bill to stop legitimate legal strikes, all of which impinge on peoples rights, but all of a sudden they are now so compassionate that they are concerned for folks rights?

      It’s a bit like Scotland, are we meant to believe that they are happy to spend billions supporting Scot’s iut of the goodness of their hearts because they ‘like’ us, the same folk who won’t give Nurses a few extra quid.

      This section 35 order is nothing more than taking shots at Sturgeon, and flexing their muscles, they ‘won’ the SC ref order, they are now showing us who is in charge, nothing more than that I’m afraid, it’s pure gamesmanship, with the populace as the football and out economy as the prize.

      Time we stopped asking. We need a leader who grabs the mike affa whatever BBC quisling is haudin it and says, no we aren’t complying, we are off, we’ve had enough. Then let them fight us to try and take it back.

      What’s gonna happen now, some who have believed the hype and think the bill affects them, more than it actually does, will now vote for Alba, just coz they don’t like Sturgeon, I sadly think that we will dilute the vote at any election, the Brits have won, they have divided us, and unless we all sitt down and plan to work strategically, then we’ve had it and will end up with Sarwar as FM, can you imagine that?

      We need to vote for Scotland, that means voting for the Indy party that will get the most seats, so SNP 1 and Indy 2, or the Green 1 SNP/Indy 2 play the system, in strongholds SNP Constituent only, no list, use that for next biggest Indy party, etc. Scotland is the prize, we can sort out the other stuff when we have oor keys back.
      ball. y, we only have ourselves to blame really.

      Ok this may be fantasy, but we really should be getting round the table, everyone, MP’’s and SMP’s, Academia (Such as Prof Baird) informed electorate (such as Sarah Salyers) we need oor heids knockin the gither, play the system, vote for the party with the biggest chance of winning the seat, even if it sticks in yer craw, play the ball, not the person.

      Regrettably I feel this will never happen, too many entrenched views, too much in fighting, we really need to grow up, not having any meaningful full wideranging media doesn’t help, so how do we who have figured out that we are pkaying right into their hands, jow do we get this point around and get to that point of bangin heids the gither rather than affa brick wa’

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      1. The SNP Leadership have lost the plot. They created this problem, it is their hopeless tactical inability that has led to this situation. Sturgeon has no strategic ability, she shone when others laid out the strategic steps required. Under her own steam she has no idea of the proper direction. That is the truth.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. you are correct of course, and I knew that when I wrote my preamble, so how do we fix it?, we are all breaking into factions, that will and has severely weakened our cause, so what else can we do, where is our Wallace, Alex maybe? too much water, Stephen and Joanna? new blood?

        How do we appeal to the Sturrels? Do we need to protest to have the Inner circle sit down with the clever people, instead of fighting each other we should be kicking their doors down (metaphorically of course) and telling her to get her finger out or move aside, or I fear the next Scot election will leave Labour in charge!

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  20. Another pure fantasy, but imagine if a peoples party started, that only had Scotlands interest at heart, imagine if it was called Salvo, and say it was more than a Liberation movement, say it was run by folks with real belief and real passion, with the rich history of our nation, lets say it’s Oh I dunno, how about Ms Salyers, and Prof Baird perhaps, both communicate with real passion, I’d vote for them in a heartbeat.

    ah we can but dream!

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Nobody knows who Salvo are, though, including myself. It would cost a helluva lot of money to get a public relations team and campaign together. Are there any lottery winners out there?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. You should seek them out, salvo.scot watch the videos, sing up for liberation.scot.

        I notice you earlier mentioned the Family Party, have you really looked into them? Think I’d rather have the tory’s the Family party make them seem left wing. 😀

        Much as I would love for someone else to take the reigns, your post above highlights the issue, we have no real media boice in Scotland, so voting for Alba, or Family or whoever is only going to dilute the indy vote, and well end up with a coalition unionist assembly.

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  21. This is something you should all read. When the Scottish Parliament passed the GRR bill, all they did was return the rights Trans people enjoyed 50yrs ago, self ID, self certification etc were all acceptable up to the point were a woman certifying and accepted as a male became the heir to title and estate. Sort of inconvenienced the crown. I’m sure this will be all over the news tomorrow, not.

    https://archive.is/V1EAN

    Liked by 1 person

  22. All this theatre is disingenuous distraction politics designed to take the focus away from independence. Sturgeon will milk this to make the loons in the SNP think she is standing up to Westminster and doing something . They will probably give her another mandate and waste another 5 years. This poisonous useless person has done more harm to Scotland than anyone except Edward the Murderer. She will never resign by nature she is a dictator she must be pushed.
    Dissolve the Union and sack Sturgeon.

    Like

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