THE DESTROYERS

THE DESTROYERS

This article is going to hurt. I know this because it needs to be written and it hurt me to write it. I am coming to the conclusion that the SNP is in the hands of the enemy. That what we are witnessing is the intentional destruction at every level within the Party. The policies, electoral appeal, assaults on the unity of the party intentionally spreading division and rancour that is resulting in thousands of activists leaving and destroying branches that are fed up being ignored and treated with no respect by HQ staff. The complete destruction of the financial base of the Party through high salaries and giving their pals jobs, while alienating those who finance the Party all mean one thing and it’s going on in front of our eyes. A crash is coming, it is just a question of what comes first, the votes or the finances.

Let me give you some examples, the 11 point plan is a fig leaf to keep us tied to the absolutely useless S30 disaster than has been the policy for too many wasted years already. If you gave every party member a truth pill you probably would not need two hands to come up with the number of true believers that it could ever work.

 
THE MAGIC MONEY TREE

You may have read the story at the weekend about how the SNP will spend £1.5 million on the May election while spending the “missing £600K” on Indy Ref preparations. I hope you were not fooled by these lies because that is what they are. They were designed to buy them a few more months, to get them to the election, before the truth comes out. These are aspirational figures, they don’t have the money, they need to raise, you need to give them it between now and May for it to happen. That wasn’t how it was presented to you was it?

Firstly the SNP don’t have 1.5 million to spend in May. The SNP are skint. The figure they are quoting is imaginary, to spend that they would need to raise it first and where is that going to come from, for a Party that is no longer trusted by many of its remaining members and is bleeding huge numbers of resignations every day?

I am told the Audit Committee, that contains some competent people with financial backgrounds are doing the unthinkable…asking searching questions and getting no answers, just avoidance and fog. 

Don’t believe me, check out what has been happening on the financial front recently. This next part comes from a contributor to the Yours for Scotland site. I have checked what is written here and I believe he is right about this. From Stuart 99.

Wings have since revealed that then-Treasurer Colin Beattie “suspended the Branch “dividend” due for April-June 2020″ because supposedly, the Party’s income was projected to be 25% down due to Covid lockdowns. They were also asking members to renew their annual subscriptions up to 2 months early supposedly because of those Covid-related problems. That is a lie on so many levels:

(a) the SNP’s major sources of income are members subs, donations and legacies. Annual Conference basically broke even in 2018 but lost money in 2019 due to a 110K blowout in audiovisual expenses, it’s disguised by showing the revenue and expenditure separately. Any reduction in SNP income is much more likely to have been from the large numbers of members quitting the Party and no longer paying subs or donating.

(b) the SNP owed 357K to Trade Creditors payable more or less immediately yet had only 97K in the bank. Funding that 260K shortfall plus paying their bloated payroll out of whatever members subs came in during first quarter 2020 meant that there was no money in the bank to pay branches

(c) the branch “dividend” is actually the Branches’ 25% share of members subs and not for April-May 2020 but for the same period in 2019. They’re robbing Peter to pay Paul and with rapidly declining membership subscriptions they’re heading for the cliff. 📝 these dividends are not now being paid out, even a YEAR in arrears.

(d) Asking members to pay subs early is another example of robbing Peter to pay Paul. It may help them out this month but creates a shortfall in the following months, and a shortfall in 2021’s income if they continued to encourage early renewal into the 4th Quarter of 2020

In any competently managed organisation the response to a declining income is to reduce your expenditure to match your income. As salaries and related on-costs are the biggest expense that means staff cuts. Not the SNP. Instead of cutting their payroll by say sending Sue Ruddick packing and Murrell taking a pay cut, instead they ADD to their expenditure by creating a new position for Marco Biagi, no doubt on a salary that’ll keep him in the manner to which he became accustomed as an MSP. Add in Pete Murrell’s legal fees for the Holyrood Inquiry and SNP HQ must be bleeding cash.

The other response by a competent management is to halt the decline in income and try to reverse it. For a political party that means convincing existing members to stay and recruiting new ones. Once again, not the SNP. They’re content to see existing independence supporters leave in droves while only interested in retaining a handful of the Wokerati.

The inescapable conclusion is that the management of the Party by Sturgeon and Murrell has been incompetent, aided by an equally incompetent Beattie. It remains to be seen if the new Treasurer will be any better than Beattie but things aren’t looking good. The SNP are heading for a train wreck unless Sturgeon, Murrell and their cronies are removed pronto and the adults take back control. 

There is method in their madness in appointing Biago. The plan here is to use his salary, and the unspecified number of existing SNP staff who are being seconded to his Indyref Preparation Unit, is to give the impression that the supposedly ring fenced missing 600k fund is being used for this purpose. There are a few problems with this, firstly it looks to me like an accounting trick to move existing staff salaries that require to be paid from the SNP main budget into a new cost category where the money can be claimed to be coming from the missing fund when in fact it is coming from the SNP’s main budget and will “reduce” the spending on the embarrassing high existing salaries. Handily it will also gradually get rid of the serious questions about where that ring fenced money went. Secondly there is no Indyref campaign to be “preparing” for. Thirdly the funds were raised on the basis of spending on the campaign, not paying SNP salaries in advance of one.These are measures designed to disguise and confuse,nothing else.

Things have only got worse since the above was written, much worse, members are still leaving in their droves. That income has gone, probably for ever.

THE NEC

Now, let’s turn to the NEC at the weekend. It was conducted on Zoom and the First Minister zoomed in and spoke for an extended period, not looking at the fifty or so members directly but at an angle of 45 degrees to the screen. It was not a friendly call, members had been warned at the outset of the meeting about confidentiality, the thought police were on duty and dire measures would be taken if there was any leaking. More about this later. Her main focus was devoted to Wings over Scotland and the need to take severe action against anyone who dared share anything from the site. Freedom of Speech is not at the top of her agenda at present. This should be a surefire way to keep the Conduct Committee busy for decades to come. Probably get rid of quite a few MP’s and MSP’s as well, was Wings not the most read website read in the Parliament the last time they looked?.

NEC members who are supposed to get papers seven days before the meeting got them at 8pm the night before. Even then it was not them all, papers were still being delivered to members during the meeting. This involved members leaving the Zoom meeting to look over the newly received papers before returning to the meeting.

The big topic was the definition on transphobia. You would think such a debate would be led by the two Convener’s elected as responsible on these matters by Conference, the Woman’s Convener and the Equalities Convener. You would be wrong, it was led by Fiona Robertson, the lady kicked off the NEC by Conference but who was attending the NEC as a substitute (again) for one of the myriad minority groups who enjoy appointed rather than elected status on the NEC. THE APPOINTEES ON THE NEC ACCOUNT FOR OVER 30% OF THE VOTES. In my view this is absolutely outrageous and undemocratic as it hands the agenda at every NEC to their control, particularly with Kirsten Oswald of the Woke faction in the chair.

Several members of the NEC had submitted resolutions and papers well in advance of the meeting for discussion. Submitted in time to be circulated in accordance with the rules. None of them featured on the agenda and were not permitted by the chair to be discussed. This is not the first time this had happened. The December meeting had a resolution to set up a sub committee to examine policy and strategy for the May election, specifically to look at ways to advance Independence. The NEC agreed to discuss it after National Assembly which most members thought reasonable. Of course the day before, the whole National Assembly was outmaneuvered with the pre announced 11 point plan. The idea of a sub committee has never made it back on the agenda since. It has been buried. 

I would be extremely worried about being on the NEC these days, the SNP appears to have no protection in place for NEC members and they could potentially face personal liability for any decisions taken. As people will recall they recently voted, against legal advice, to impose the list fixing for Bame and Disabled candidates and with clear warnings that potentially huge amounts in damages and legal costs may be liable in the event of an adverse court action. I don’t know if they have any insurance. I know members that have asked for sight of any protection that is in place to protect their interest but thus far nothing has been provided. This is the height of irresponsibility, a lack of liability insurance is just crazy, irresponsible and stupid. Members homes may be at risk here. There have been resignations of elected members already and others are considering doing likewise unless evidence of protection is produced.

The truth of course is that the last NEC was so pathetic and woke dominated that they were happy for the SNP staff at HQ to take control of the Party and what a mess they have made of it. They don’t need to worry when the courts come for their money it won’t be Peter Murrell or Sue Ruddick that are liable but the NEC, INCLUDING the Goodguys and gals who had no idea just how bad things were when they stood for election last November. I have spoken with several who find it hard to believe it’s so bad, one said  “we knew there were problems, but we had no idea it was so bad. I am having to consider resigning which I don’t want to do but I will if we don’t manage to change things soon”.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I am told that despite the lengthy and stern warnings about keeping everything secret Kirsten Oswald had a flaky before the end of the meeting when she read on Twitter events that happened in the meeting minutes before. Why she was surprised I don’t know, you can’t act the bully, threaten and cajole, rule out any sense of democracy or balance and expect people with principle to sit there and take it. The NEC leaks like a sieve and thank goodness it does. It will be those leaks that will do for the Woke. Everything they do will be out in the open and those responsible will be accountable to the survivors of the woke disaster at Conference later in the year. Nothing they do will remain secret, exactly who is doing what will be known. They will be accountable. It is their greatest fear, hence their hatred of the bloggers, especially Wings. Hate away, we are going nowhere.

Now to return to the Thought Police latest trendy topic. Transphobia. Let’s be clear here this is intended to silence and bully women in the Party who oppose GRA and the Hate Crime Bill and to make it easier to label men who support the women in that opposition misogynistic. It is been put in place to take certain prominent women out the Party. People like Joanna Cherry and Joan McAlpine. Members will be “trained” not to offend by “experts” like Fiona Robertson who has no academic qualification but nevertheless has used the self ID route to declaring herself an expert.

It did not get off to the best of starts, the template for the definition was the same as the much discredited and problematic  IHRA definition of anti semitism, the same wording and examples, a sort of cut and paste job, probably by the resident “expert” Fiona Robertson. You know the person whose ludicrous allegations about the much loved GROUSEBEATER being an anti semite resulted in him being expelled from the Party. He was never an anti semite and I know to this day, his final days, it troubles him greatly that this injustice was forced on him. The SNP TREATED THIS GREAT SCOTTISH PATRIOT DISGRACEFULLY. So beware anything that has Fiona Robertson’s name to it, it will be a political tool of her design and will be used maliciously against those who do not conform to her Woke policies.

Everyone wants to make it possible for everyone’s rights to be protected. The problems start when one group want “rights” that infringe on others rights. As a grandfather of a ten year granddaughter I can never support biological men being allowed in female toilets. I am sorry, but self ID declarations that they are women just doesn’t cut it with me. That may make me a misogynist in their view but it also makes me a careful and responsible grandparent. Guess which one I will choose to be?

I cannot get my head round this. This election should be the greatest opportunity to move Independence forward but the SNP LEADERSHIP are pulling back on Independence while pushing these extreme gender issues which no Party Conference has ever discussed or supported and which are splitting the Party asunder. It looks and feels like deliberate sabotage and when, not if, it becomes an election issue it will cost the SNP HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF VOTES.

Nicola Sturgeon is a clever woman, a skilled politician, she must know these policies, no matter how worthy she considers them, will be hugely unpopular and will unite opposition to the SNP. Likewise the Hate Crime Bill which has united  literally hundreds of organisations against its implementation. Pushing them at this time is the actions of a leader who wants to lose, not win an election.

So to return to my original point I say, the current leadership are losing thousands of members, dividing the party from top to bottom, lying about the true financial state of the Party, disguising the loss of hundreds of thousands of pounds of ring fenced Indyref money, promoting policies that will result in the loss of hundreds of thousands of votes in the election, operating an undemocratic NEC and has a part time leader who is totally tied up, doing a good job on Covid but ignoring everything else that is going badly wrong. Finally, her husband is useless at his job as well. Now do you want me to talk about the plot against Alex Salmond? 

That can wait another day! Probably tomorrow would be my guess.

I am, as always

YOURS FOR SCOTLAND

BEAT THE CENSORS (read what they prefer you didn’t)

Due to steps being taken by certain pro SNP WEBSITES that claim to be pro Indy but are just SNP FRONTS, to close down and block my articles I strongly recommend readers take out a free subscription to this website These are available on the Home and Blog pages link on the top right of this article. This will ensure that I will send you a link every time a new article is published. THIS WILL SECURE YOUR ACCESS TO ARTICLES THE THOUGHT POLICE WOULD PREFER YOU DID NOT SEE. 

INTERESTING CONFERENCE

Please suggest to your readers they might like to attend the Moving beyond the Growth Commission conference on hopin.com on Thursday from 4pm (and re-broadcast on Saturday afternoon). Moving Beyond The Sustainable Growth Commission | Hopin participants include Tim Rideout, Prof Richard Murphy, George Kerevan, Ruth Wishart, Craig Dalzell, and Kairin van Sweeden

63 thoughts on “THE DESTROYERS

  1. You know Iain, I am pretty new to all this as I have said before. Despite being pro-independence since I was born, it’s only recently I have taken what you might call an active interest. I don’t think the SNP can be saved and Nicola Sturgeon would appear to have set independence back by a long shot. We need some of the big players to get together and join the ISP and start again. You guys know who you are…Scotland needs you.

    Liked by 9 people

  2. I recognise how much that must have hurt to write the article. It pained me to read it! However, it is spot on. I only hope we can get OUR Party back from the brink.
    The SNP are denying that members are leaving. Apparently at the NEC, after the ‘warning’ about leaking, the comment was made ‘ we know who you are’. Playground politics with an evil edge. This latest definition, along with the hatred of WoS, will be used to attack long standing and loyal party members who joined to gain Independence. It is within our grasp, but looks like being ripped away from us by OUR Party. Some of us have spent a lifetime fighting the cause and possibly, now, will not see an Independent SCOTLAND in our remaining lifetime.

    Liked by 9 people

  3. It has been clear to me for some time that this is a plot to destroy the movement from within, probably the minute I knew Alec was set up by members of the party as that could only go one way. Everything points towards British state infiltration which I’ve not bee shy in proclaiming despite the howls of conspiracy nut. My reasoning; nobody is that incompetent by accident. Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty of people involved in this who have been played like a fiddle and truly believe they are on the right side. Fiona Robertson would be an example of this. That’s certainly not Nicola though and it’s no coincidence that she surrounds herself with the young and impressionable, those lacking in moral fiber and the overqualified. The timing of the GRA and HCB leading into Brexit when the Union was at it’s weakest, the missing campaign funds, the Murrell takeover and shutting down debate, the attempted jailing of seasoned independence activists, The close ties with her ‘Special Advisors’ from the English civil service, The blocking of Joanna Cherry and the parachuting of Angus Robertson into Edinburgh as the establishments successor, the media blackout of all of the above. The list goes on and on and on.

    I’m glad some popular bloggers are now coming round to this as to be honest I can’t come to any other conclusion. This is going to be framed as Nicola chasing the trans right issue being on the right side of history and potentially being played by Leslie Evans but the truth is far more interesting. We might never know, such are the nature of these things.

    Liked by 14 people

    1. It seems to me that if you accept that in the past the British state has been guilty of serious atrocities at the same time that it has proclaimed its benevolence and integrity, then it would be pretty stupid to pretend that it does not do so in the present.

      It is glaringly obvious to anybody with a sense of history that Alex Salmond is being fitted up by the Brits. The manner by which this is happening is no doubt utterly opaque and will involve a few well placed operatives starting a few predictable train crashes of events while along the way feeding the right information at the hight time to the right people. Most of the people involved in this will have absolutely no idea at all of what they are involved in.

      Alex is keen to point the bulk of his ire towards the Crown Office and Leslie Evans, both very close to the organs of state power.

      Of course it’s a conspiracy involving the British State, his could it be anything else??

      Liked by 9 people

      1. I don’t think so anyway. I think Alec is cautious not to go after Nicola too aggressively knowing that she does still have huge popularity with the masses which could damage the movement. Public opinion will eventually shift and she will be forced to resign one way of the other.

        Liked by 4 people

      2. Maybe it would be fun if the Scottish government disconnected itself from the independence movement. Remained neutral and continued doing a good job in this pandemic. Meanwhile, the independence movement may proceed by other means.

        Liked by 10 people

  4. Fully agree with your article Iain, as I’ve commented on here several times already, the Murrells,are trying their best to avoid an overall majority as being largest party keeps their gravy train going and feeds their egos
    Over a number of years,the desire of Ms Sturgeon for independence has been consumed by her megalomania
    My only difference with you is that I don’t think she has managed Covid well
    Only difference with Boris is that she has a daily TV show and 4 times as many SPADS blasting out her PR but performance figures are not significantly different which is unsurprising as they’re using same data and analysis process

    Liked by 5 people

    1. She stole the whole thing from Jacinda Ardern of NZ. Who has played an absolute blinder re Covid in comparison. With my Kiwi hat on I look askance and sceptically at those TV appearances. They seem all about Nicola. In NZ when the PM is otherwise engaged the Health minister does them.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. Spot on..
      I would go further on the needless tragic deaths in Scotland from Covid, given our size. Her (4 Nations Approach) is wrong…and sinister.,
      I’m with John Pilger here, he calls it Eugenic Slaughter.

      Liked by 2 people

    3. I, too, do not think NS has handled COVID well. I’m pretty close to the front line & have been looking at the events in other countries around the world. Scotland only looks good in comparison to England. I’ve come to the conclusion that anyone who says they admire the way NS is dealing with COVID really doesn’t know what they are talking about.

      Like

  5. Well said and thank you for it. The issue seems to be why. Why are the Murrels doing this? What do they expect to gain?

    It’s hard to believe they are not being paid to do it and that one day they will not retire to England after they have destroyed the SNP.

    They cannot possibly be seriously seeking independence because all, I mean absolutely all, the evidence says that cannot be happening.

    PS: Mysogony means very specifically a hatred of women. To support women who disagree with transgender rights when they impinge on and traduce women’s rights cannot be mysogenistic. To suggest so is illiterate, and, if you will pardon the expression, mysoginistic.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Word is Sturgeon is angling for a UN job in Geneva but needs the PM to approve it. That explains a lot don’t you think? She will need to jump to it almost straight from office, hence the desperate holding on effort.

      Liked by 5 people

  6. Thanks Iain for laying out the facts regarding the mess that the SNP is in. I had a meeting with Robin McAlpine last August to get his opinion as to whether or not to resign from the SNP. Robin’s advice was to wait a few months before deciding as there would be revelations one way or another which would allow me to make an informed decision. I took Robin’s advice.

    The delay and obfuscation of the Harassment Committee has been incredible. I have still not resigned and will give it till after next Wednesday to make my decision. You very kindly published an article I had written “Why I support Independence for Scotland” as an Article of the Week. I have supported Independence for 64 years and that at the age of 82 was the first article I ever had published. In that article I raised my concerns at the lack of democracy in the SNP and those concerns have only increased with everything you have outlined in your post today. I really am still conflicted as to whether I should remain a member or resign.

    On reading over this my reply and rereading your post I have, with a heavy heart, reached my decision and my resignation from the SNP will be written and sent today – the state of the party has become so rotten that no other decision is tenable.

    Bye bye SNP

    Liked by 19 people

    1. Heartbreaking decision snd those whose actions forced it on you should be ashamed. I hope you will join Now Scotland, as I have, that will allow you to continue to fight for our Independence.

      Liked by 7 people

    2. I liked your comment and then realised that was not enough. I don’t know what to say other than your pain seeps out of your message and that somehow we who truly want Scotland to be free will never give up.

      Liked by 4 people

    3. Seems a very sensible man who has taken everything into consideration and resigned from the SNP. I would have done the same in fact was a labour member until they put Corbyn then withdrew my membership. Anyone who has an ounce of intelligence and common sense would stop supporting a party, no matter political persuasion they are. I know I would.

      Like

    4. I am sorry for your loss, Jim. I mean that the way it reads. Being a member of something like the SNP for so long only to find it is no longer compatible with your integrity is a hard thing to bear. Just remember, while you may no longer support the SNP you do still support Scotland & her Independence.

      Liked by 1 person

  7. Independence was never just about a vote on it. It was always about what would happen after winning a vote to become independent. Sturgeon’s talk of independence has used a vote on independence as a smokescreen for the lack of any actions on the real issues relating to independence, namely what happens after a Yes vote. There would be the immediate negotiations with the UK and also with the EU for re-entry, along with establishing all the state functions that an independent country needs.

    The EU politicians and media have made it clear that it thought the UK’s management of the Brexit process to be little short of economic suicide, led by a delusional and disconnected group known as the UK government. Scotland was seen as not only not being part of this Westminster directed self harm and likely to suffer disproportionately from it, despite having so strongly voted to remain in the EU. But what will the EU now make of what the SNP under Sturgeon are doing to the legal trustworthiness of Scotland? Just another ‘UK’ fubar seems the obvious conclusion that they would make. Would the EU really want to take on board a country with such serious basic legislative internal failings that the Scottish Government clearly has. The certainty of Scotland being quickly granted re-entry into the EU with Sturgeon at the head of the SNP now seems wishful thinking and without that, or at least strong links with Europe (EFTA), an independent Scotland is a pipedream. It isn’t all about what we want. The EU is not likely to remain an open door to Scotland with internal chaos being so evident.

    Without confusing a desire for independence with a need for Sturgeon’s SNP, and leaving aside the possible real goals of Sturgeon’s SNP, it now seems unquestionable that the current SNP’s inability to take the necessary post independence vote actions, means that until Sturgeon and her influence on the SNP are removed and replaced with what the vast majority of supporters of independence want, the option of Scotland becoming independent will remain an illusion. But the SNP will not be the Nicola Sturgeon party forever. The solution isn’t to dump the SNP as a lost cause, it’s to dump Sturgeon and get the SNP back to being what it was before she took over. Sturgeon has been a warning against celebrity, presidential and dictatorial leadership and it was better to discover this now than any further down the road to independence.

    Liked by 13 people

  8. Excellent article.I have been a !member for 30 year’s and, if my employment had not been such that precluded me from being a member of a political party, add on another 30. I have always supported independence and physically campaigned for it.Here we are at the very to!e it is within our grasp, it is being ripped away from us by the very person we all supported.And to all those who say ” now is not the time” I am afraid ” Now Is THE TIME” .Nicola Sturgeon has to go to bring some democracy back and show that we are a responsible party fit to govern. Some say wait but that will be locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.I am also a husband,father and grandfather to a 22 year old grand daughter and attended th inaugural meeting of TheWomens Pledge in Aberdeen.I fully support their aims.

    Liked by 9 people

  9. Iain

    Thank you for writing this. It could be argued that the situation is even worse than that described. I say that because the accumulating evidence suggests a culture of cover up, mis-direction and lying now dominates the Party leadership operations.

    I understand the hunger for Independence but what kind of start would it be fo a Nation with people like this at the helm.

    The Party leadership are engineering a legacy even if they are thrown out in a few months. They have loaded the Wokerati to the top of the regional lists. If they loose constituency seats they gain Wokerati faithful in the list because that effective vote value will increase. They have poisoned the well to ensure GRA is the dominant topic post the Holyrood elections.

    We have been herded into a corner. Vote SNP in the constituency and it is a green light to the corrupt to continue. Don’t vote SNP in protest and the remaining loyal SNP list vote will deliver Wokerati MSPs due to a reduced divisor via D’Hondt.

    I cannot vote Unionist or Green ( the are not Green only a branch of the Wokerati)
    I cannot not vote. The history of gaining that Right too important.
    I have a decent (non woke) SNP candidate in my constituency and will vote for the person – it is not a vote for the SNP)
    I will not even consider giving the SNP my 2nd. Vote (mine will go to the ISP).

    Study this issue carefully. In many regions NOT voting for a decent SNP constituency candidate will actually reinforce the Murrell’s position by delivering Woke list MSP’s

    The Murrells will be quite happy with a minority Government status. It is in fact their objective.

    One last thing. If you are still in the SNP cut your financial support to the absolute minimum. Cutting off the cash will help bring them down.

    For those who do not know – MPs and MSPs are currently forced to contribute a large chunk of their salaries to HQ. Election success is seen as just another income source NOT progress to Independence.

    Liked by 10 people

  10. “So to return to my original point I say, the current leadership are losing thousands of members, dividing the party from top to bottom, lying about the true financial state of the Party, disguising the loss of hundreds of thousands of pounds of ring fenced Indyref money, promoting policies that will result in the loss of hundreds of thousands of votes in the election, operating an undemocratic NEC and has a part time leader who is totally tied up, doing a good job on Covid but ignoring everything else that is going badly wrong. Finally, her husband is useless at his job as well.”

    Apart from that, everything ok though?

    Liked by 4 people

  11. Excellent piece. Thank you.

    Quite apart from the fact that I believe sincerely that Madge’s departments of dirty tricks are pulling the big strings here, it is interesting to reflect that if the Scottish government is dominated by those for whom protecting ever more narrow categories of person by state legislation and language reconstruction is more important than … well, anything else, then it is bound to be chaotic and utterly disconnected from ordinary reality. So even if this lot believe sincerely they are doing us all a favour by ensuring the country, which eventually does become independent protects every category of person, has been able to rebuild language and has trained us all to right think, actually it has been inadvertently I’m sure used by the usual forces of state control and propaganda to destabilise the country and ensure independence never takes place.

    Flame off …

    Liked by 3 people

  12. When Sturgeon and the mandarins started touting to stop Brexit, I was astonished. I thought that the SNP had become just another British Party. I thought that they may prevent independence, but could not quite believe it. I’ve thought for a while that the party has been infiltrated by the British state. I’m sure of it now. The SNP may actually prevent us from becoming independent!

    What can be done to change the leadership?

    Liked by 3 people

  13. The most worrying point in this article wasn’t the the policies, divisions, resignations, high salaries crashing finances the 11 point plan, NEC subversion or even stitching up former first ministers (which will wait for an-other day). It was ‘electoral appeal’.

    For better or worse the SNP party is perceived as the party of independence. To the majority of Scots (ie those who have not already made up their mind which way to vote in a referendum) the Party and inde-pendence are synonymous. If the Party are perceived as amateur hour at the fuckwittery pageant, my con-cern (as a non-SNP member) is Janet or John Public will not vote for home rule, when they realise the corrup-tion at the heart of Scottish politics (in its wider sense; media, crown office etc).

    At this point I’m less concerned with saving the Party than I am in saving my dreams for a better future for my children. Should I actively campaign against the SNP in the hope that they get hammered in May, Sturgeon quits, wokeratti move to the greens? Or campaign for them in the knowledge that the damage the Party have done to date to the cause of independence is NOTHING compared to the years of carnage they will un-leash, to as gleeful unionist MSN?

    Liked by 2 people

  14. I disagree in only one aspect Sturgeon is not a clever person, she is anything but.
    The Money ? She has NO business sense whatsoever, she is in awe of the rich,
    Example being her behavior around McColl , the placement of Mackay,who did one thing right in stopping the flow of money to McColl
    She appoint folk with less business sense than her.
    I have little doubt the Wokeratti within the the party will will keep her flush ? Or not they may well have been dipping the till , one can reasonably assume.
    The £600k ? It’s easy to spot where it went
    The NEC have the liability for the said £600K and sundry debt,and she is in the NEC (Murrel might not be)
    ( A reasonably good example of this is found in the the procedure of the Law Society of Scotland when things go wrong, and their actions)
    Her attacks on folk? For no reason . Of course not by the Beloved St.Nicola, but by the trash
    Blocks using women’s toilets ?? Perverse at least
    The Attacks on Stuart Campbell, for what telling the truth
    The Hannah Rodger’s one Joanna Cherry because an alleged actor can’t read (does that get him a pass as a candidate, in the new SNP?) or worse understand
    I genuinely try very hard not to hate anyone, Sturgeon stretches that boundary
    This will not end well, and she’s brought it on herself

    Liked by 2 people

  15. Governing parties can develop policies with the aid of the civil service, however, opposition parties receive a grant called Short Money to help them do the same. The SNP is in opposition in Westminster and receives a large amount of Short Money. As this expenditure requires to be accounted for, they will have to be careful not to redefine these policy support staff as being paid from the independence pot.

    Liked by 4 people

  16. a comment on transphobia.

    In my view the key issue is that Oswald and Robertson and others claim that there is no conflict between trans rights and other human rights, and therefore to say so is transphobic. But the factual reality is that conflict between various human rights is something that various constitutional courts grabble with on a daily basis, in German there is even a word for it – Grundrechtskollision. So I find the idea that there is none between trans rights and other human rights laughable – and the suggestion that this is a doctrine that must not be doubted totalitarian.

    However I feel you are wrong about toilets, because public toilets are already de-facto self-ID. The problem in public toilets are not transwomen and transmen but arseholes who deliberately misbehave (and drunks of course). It will still be possible to throw out arseholes (and out of both mens and womens toilets) if they cause any trouble, and any claim that they are transgender and thus have a right to be where they are and behave as they do will not work.

    So I can’t see how self-ID for transwomen and transmen will make a difference to the practical functioning of public toilets – though I do feel that it may cause serious issues in other areas, like the example we recently had in the Scottish parliament with sex/gender of policemen/-women dealing with rape victims. On the other hand, that episode showed the shallowness of the trans arguments – the vast majority of MSPs did the right think and not the pseudo-pro-trans thing because they know sometimes there actually are conflicts between trans rights and other human rights and these will have to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis…

    Liked by 2 people

    1. I think that the suffixes, “phobe”, “phobic”, and “phobia” need to be dropped. They are bully words which prevent reasoning and reasoned discussion about the philosophical, theological, and scientific factors concerning a subject. Some people who believe that transwomen, who may be taking hormones to grow breasts, lose body hair, and have treatment to destroy facial hair and prevent its growth, yet retain their male genitalia, are really biologically male, are not irrationally fearful of trans-people. They also consider the factor of chromosomes needs to be considered. A phobia is an irrational fear. This should not be a discussion simply about fears, rational and irrational, but about other considerations also.

      It seems that the big issue in the trans debate is about transwomen and not transmen. This is because it touches the nerve of feminism, but not any nerve in men. Let’s have reasoned and reasonable discussion with throwing bully suffixes at people!

      Like

    2. “….public toilets are already de-facto self-ID.” I am unclear whether you are talking about women’s single-sex toilets or mixed-sex toilets. When you say public toilets do you mean, for example, ones in public buildings or ones in motorway service stations? The problem for women cannot be passed off as throwing out drunks and undesirables. Who is going to do the throwing out? Will toilets now need bouncers or police to ensure people’s safety? This is the problem, women are expected to put up with this nonsense because some men say their feelings are being hurt. I can assure you there are very few women who would be capable of removing a man from a toilet, either on their own or with another woman. Women have single-sex toilets to protect them from predatory and abusive men. We do not want men who say they are women using our toilets, we do not want any men using our toilets. All women have learned to be wary of men from childhood to adulthood because of their experiences with boys and/or men. Almost every woman can tell a story of how a boy or man abused her in childhood or growing up whether it was being flashed at, putting a hand up her skirt, touching her or rape. It is as common as that. This is what happens to women and girls on a regular basis. You say trans women are already going into women’s toilets almost as if it is a clever thing for them to do. They are breaking the law. The men who say they are women want the law removed to allow them to use women’s toilets, despite the fact that 90% of trans identifying men have not had surgery to remove their male genitalia. Why then are our single-sex toilets being removed, no consultation with women, and we are told to just put up with it. Men are rarely the ones who are threatened, women frequently are, so can you understand why women are scared about gender self-ID. The effect of the lack of single-sex toilets will mean that many women will be reluctant to use public toilets, reducing the time they spend in public places which have mixed-sex toilets. Gradually, women will become invisible, as the fear and experiences they have had with voyeuristic/abusive men will curtail their lives. I cannot work out from which perspective you are presenting an argument, but I think a little more thought should have gone into your response rather than a dismissive attitude towards women’s concerns over the loss of their rights to safety and privacy. Women like Kirsten Oswald and Fiona Thomson believe they are progressive without really thinking through the way in which their progressiveness will impinge on other women’s lives. None of this has ever been discussed with Scottish public nor debated in HR. Most members of the Scottish public, men and women, are unaware of the consequences of GRA reform and that is exactly how the Scottish Government, Stonewall, Scottish Transgender Alliance and other gender identity groups, want it to stay. When it is explained to people their reaction is one of anger at why the government has failed to inform them about it. This is one of Nicola Sturgeon’s pet projects that must be stopped.

      Liked by 3 people

    3. The person my comment was aimed at re toilets
      He see himself in state of power by using the toilet where he should not be,
      A woman should be feel safe within that confine, …That should be it.
      Where it gets worrying, is he goes in completely unaware of who is in there and what is in the occupier’s mind
      including their private mindset
      It is about his power
      Take it a bit beyond that and it’s a young girl!!!!!!

      Liked by 2 people

  17. As I commented earlier, I finally made my decision today to resign from the SNP. Here is the text of the email I sent them

    Quote

    SNP Resignation

    My email address is jimarnott101@gmail.com

    This message is to inform you that I am terminating my membership of the SNP as of today.

    I have cancelled my monthly donation.

    If you have to ask, why I am resigning, that quite simply indicates your total lack of understanding of the degree of unrest among a great many SNP members.

    My Membership number is XXXXXXX and I was a member of the renamed Livingston North Branch.

    I am 82 years of age and have believed in Independence for Scotland for 64 years and will do so until the day I die.

    Jim Arnott

    Unquote

    I also emailed this to Nicola Sturgeon, John Swinney, Keith Brown, Michael Russell, Ian Blackford, Hannah Bardell, Angela Constance, Fiona Hislop and Robert DeBold

    I got the following reply to my email a few minutes ago

    Quote

    Dear Jim Arnott

    Thank you for letting us know that you wish to leave the SNP.

    We’re sorry to see you go, in meantime, please accept my thanks for your contributions to the party.

    Peter Murrell

    Chief Executive

    Unquote

    This will now be shared with my 4,000+ followers on Twitter and my 3,000 Friends on Facebook

    Liked by 8 people

    1. 👏👏👏

      The same “auto reply” we all got. That is the issue. No responsible organisation ignores long term members leaving in droves without an enquiry. No exit questionnaire, no phone calls, no study.
      Decades of membership worthless in comparison to the Wokerati recent entries.

      Liked by 7 people

    2. The Murrell proforma response is disgusting. How did it come to pass that this total nonentity trousers 160K a year from funds that should be focussed on securing independence .

      Liked by 2 people

  18. Iain, thanks for that belter of a post.

    I so want to scribble some more thoughts but I have bags of work to do, and between yourself, Wings and the other Pro-Indy bloggers, I’m dizzy with info whilst watching a dirty-water dam about to burst.

    Couple of quickies; one day I’m up the next I’m down, and today is defo an ‘up’ day. I’m heartened by today’s events, news and bloggers.
    Someone recently said, during a lull, that ‘even Joanna Cherry’s been quiet’ but I happen to believe those like Joanna Cherry, Salmond – and others behind the scenes – are showing a dignified restraint and, knowing she’s not got a chance in Hell, are giving Sturgeon enough rope.

    Today is a good day!

    Liked by 8 people

  19. Dear Iain ,

    The simultaneous exodus of rank and file members you describe has happened during a surge in popular support.

    The woke faction owe their success wholly to the good job she’s made of covid. Who is directing her?

    Next stop a police state. Who can I now vote for? I might have to emigrate to Sweden!

    Please help!!!!

    Kind Regards,

    Neil McIntyre

    Like

  20. Ian, It is sad that this article had to be written but I think most of those who read it will understand its purpose. I am a supporter of Independence and have been an admirer of the FM for several years. My admiration has been sorely tested over the last year and I am now angry at the destruction she seems to be wreaking on the SNP and Scotland. The saddest part of all this is that the people who worked hard to build up the party and its progress to Independence have now had that pretty well taken from them. Given the number of allegations against her, it does seem a very bizarre way for an intelligent, respected woman, at the top of her game, to behave. I hope that she is able to provide answers to the many questions the Scottish public require, the first one being – Why was Independence sidelined?

    Liked by 2 people

  21. I think this is the second or third time I’ve commented on your pieces. We both have an aspiration to see an independent Scotland, though come at the current predicaments facing the SNP from different perspectives.

    Your interpretation and approach will always result in more questions and confusion – which is exactly what the British State (& others) wants. My interpretations – as unnerving as they are – will lead to clarity and solutions.

    However until you open your mind to *historical precedence* housed in the contemporary evidence; you’ll always be chasing your own tail. What we are experiencing are variations of a theme which has all *been done before*.

    ‪“Original minds are not distinguished by being the first to see a new thing, but instead seeing the old, familiar thing that is overlooked as something new”. Friedrich Nietzsche.‬

    ‘The #MeToo [LGBT & Gender Agenda] Truth of Nr5 #RampantSexism’ https://wp.me/p94Aj4-1Y2

    Like

    1. I felt like binning it but have left it up to display the complete lack of realism to other attitudes that you hold. Frightening. He was not talking about men in women’s toilets when he made that quote either.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Ah well. I tried. Time will tell who’s proven to be the realist in due course. And yes, it is frightening.

        “Few people have the imagination for reality”. Goethe

        ‘Internal Market Bill – A UK Enabling Act, Anschluss, Regime Change, A Soldier’s Psychological Tool & ‘Rope-A-Dope’ Distraction’ by #GaslightingGilligan https://wp.me/p94Aj4-21W

        Good luck in your endeavours.

        Like

  22. Let’s compare the SNP to a business, and it’s members to customers. It looks like about half the membership has left in the last two years, although they aren’t ever going to confirm that. What would happen to the Chief Exec of a business that lost half it’s customer base in two years?
    I think we all know the answer to that.

    Liked by 2 people

      1. I will. I think they’ll start to go south very soon. The wider electorate are only just beginning to be fed the full abominable mess by the MSM. The polls will move and it isn’t going to be pleasant. The SNP are heading for a very poor election result.

        Like

  23. You’ve given me a dilemma, Iain.

    I was all set to say that the best thing for Scotland, Independence & the SNP is for the SNP to get a complete drubbing at the next election. But, if NS is setting things up to ensure that the SNP lose the next election am I then playing into her (& her ‘controllers’) hands? Maybe I should now be dedicated to ensuring the SNP win in 2021!

    I need a lie down…

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Been thinking the same thing, Hugh. I hate what Nicola Sturgeon has done to the SNP. And in the normal scheme of things, I wouldn’t ever vote for her/her party again. But I can be a right thrawn bi*ch and I’m fantastic at holding a grudge when I put my mind to it.

      But yes – I have believed for awhile now that Sturgeon does NOT want a majority b/c then she would be forced to make some kind of move toward Indy. So my current thinking has been – everyone make sure to vote for her, and give her the biggest majority other parties couldn’t even DREAM of! But don’t allow her to back-slide, or to fob us off with a Ref ‘at some point in time’. If May is not going to be a plebiscite, then… as soon as SNP is elected, the Indy supporters start to insist we push for Independence. And if she baulks, we use that civil disobedience we talked of. Where once we talked of using it to interfere with WM directives, we use it on our own Scotgov & INSIST the manifesto is carried out within a reasonable time.

      It’s that or she wins. Or her unionist buddies win. A quandary, for sure.

      Liked by 2 people

  24. Really good article – heart breaking from any angle – but true.

    And always the Yessers that know we need a competent party to deliver indy – absolutely torn – and the questions – needle/stuck/repeat –

    keeping the powder dry — pulling the punches?

    keeping the powder dry — spiking the guns?

    keeping the powder dry — look at the polls?

    keeping the powder dry — its all Alex Salmond fault… and Wings.. LOOK AT THE POLLS?

    Smoking gun…

    Alex Salmond disconnected the Crown Prosecution Service from Scot Gov in 2007… EU rules and regs state there is a conflict of intererst if you do not… oh really? You don’t say!…. NS in power reinstalls very quickly… and when did she re-install the Fiscal service as Ministers in the Cabinet?…. and why? Sorry did I say ‘why?’ out loud? meant to say, ‘WHAT THE FUCK FOR’ no-one (we know about) gave twa hoots.

    There’s yir smoking gun folks.

    Liked by 1 person

  25. My comments on the Party’s finances were based on the 2019 accounts plus some extrapolation based on what we know about the SNP’s actions in 2020. That’s because I along with everyone else haven’t seen the 2020 accounts yet, and on past performance the members won’t see them before this current year is almost over. My question is whether the accounts for 2020 have been presented to the NEC last weekend and if not, why not?

    As a retired Accountant and former Managing Director of a medium-size business I can tell you that the annual accounts should be ready within 2 weeks of yearend at the latest and in an entity as simple as the SNP probably within 1 week. The NEC should also have been presented for approval a budget for the operating costs of the Party Head Office and the projected revenue for 2021 as well as the budget for May election and how the Party expects to finance it. At every meeting the NEC should be presented with accounts for the year to date compared to budget and with cashflow projections for the next few months. As Ian can confirm, it’s no good discovering 12 months later that you’ve made a whacking great loss by which time it’s too late to take any corrective action. Unfortunately I have no confidence that the NEC are given any such information given the secretive and underhanded way that the Murrells run the Party. After I posted about the 2019 accounts on Wings, Stu Campbell commented that the accounts had been issued without the NEC even seeing them. And the NEC is supposed to be the governing body of the SNP between Annual Conferences! For that matter how often does the NEC meet?

    Ian, do I understand you correctly that the Branches have not received any of their 2019 dues during 2020? Also why is Kirsten Oswald in the chair if there was a clean sweep of the woke candidates at the NEC elections and they make up 70% of the delegates?

    In the SNP’s dire financial state lies an opportunity for the membership to reclaim the Party. In one of the BTL comments on Wings an SNP member wrote:
    https://wingsoverscotland.com/an-open-letter-to-nicola-sturgeon/#comment-2618490

    “every other SNP member I know well enough to call ‘friend’ is in the same situation (feel like resigning), and some of those members, like me, are ”Women’s Pledge” members. There are male WP members too, and three of us were at the very first meeting in Aberdeen. If it wasn’t for our Holyrood20 candidate – and the ‘Pledge’ – our entire branch committee would have quit before now. That said, we’ve already lost a significant number of members – mostly ‘gender critical’ women, but all could be called ‘activists’. None are remotely ‘woke’ or ‘trans allies’. In addition, all now accept (some were unsure at first) that there was/is a high level conspiracy, and that the target, and the real victim, is Alex Salmond.

    All of us are also sickened by what our party has become, and a few are dreading what the future holds for Scotland if the current leadership (government and party) is still in place and the SNP wins an overall majority in May. 5 years to introduce any bill, any policy, and head in any direction with nothing to stop them doing so, or at least put the brakes on ! I’ve spoken to activist/office bearer members in dozens of branches all over the country (there are private networks that allow us to do this), and every branch I’ve spoken to is much the same.”

    **************************************

    So evidently there is a lot of awareness and disquiet at the grassroots membership level at what Sturgeon, Murrell and their Wokerati faction have been up to. As Ian said in an earlier post money is the lifeblood of politics because without money you can’t campaign. This is Sturgeon’s Achilles Heel. The members en masse need to tell their branch office-bearers, MSPs, MPs, NEC members and the Party Treasurer that they will boycott all fundraising and campaigning unless Sturgeon and Murrell are removed from the Party. MSPs need to be told that unless they support a Vote of No Confidence in Sturgeon as First Minister they’ll get no money or votes in May.

    I’d also suggest examining the Party’s Constitution to see whether there’s a provision for calling an Extraordinary General Meeting to remove Sturgeon, Murrell and a few of the other objectionable office-bearers. Cleansing the NEC of the unelected special interest groups would be another priority, after which a reversal of the stacking of the List seats should follow immediately.

    I’ll leave you with this thought: if the Murrells can mismanage the Party’s finances to this extent, what on Earth are they doing to the nation’s finances?

    Liked by 2 people

    1. You make a lot of sense, Stuart. A LOT of sense! But I’m not sure that can happen (NEC helping through boycotting) if what this lady says is true & I have no reason to dispute it:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-brick-wall/#comments

      It really seems as though they actually DON’T CARE about whether there is memberships or money in the pot, anymore! It’s like they’ve lost all sense of the whole situation, like a car crash running out of control – one car driving up a one way street & bashing into other cars, lorries, signposts etc. as it goes, then turning over onto its roof and sliding down the hill, only to get to the bottom and splash into the loch – to sink into oblivion!

      I agree though – it is time for a Vote of No Confidence in the First Minister! I think there would be plenty of people to make it a majority! I don’t have any confidence the 2nd in command will be any better but I’d HOPE that he would at least see the need, in view of the latest WM/Scottish Councils wheeze, for independence! And certainly worth trying!

      Like

    2. Hi katielass, I wasn’t suggesting that the NEC members should be personally urging a boycott since to do so would give NS and PM an excuse to expel the opposition from the Party. The opposition would automatically lose their seats on the NEC and be replaced by PM’s stooges.

      If enough people within the party know about the members’ revolt then it cannot be swept under the rug the way the wholesale resignations of members has been hidden. Sending angry resignation letters may be cathartic but it’s not having any effect on the leadership cabal. The current MSPs need to know that either they get rid of the Murrells or they’re going to lose their seats in May. “Nothing concentrates a man’s mind so much as the knowledge that he is going to be hanged in the morning”. The Councillors and MPs need to be convinced that their heads will be next on the list. Get your pitchforks and flaming torches out! Anyone have a spare guillotine we could borrow?

      Hopefully faced with electoral disaster the Party officials and MSPs will grow a spine and take action against the Murrells and their collaborators. But time is running out, it needs to happen NOW. If the SNP get re-elected with the Sturgeon cabal still in place expect the GRA, the Thought Crime Act and Humza McStasi’s reign of terror. In that case the best we can hope for is that Westminster abolishes Holyrood and takes over direct rule (not that I’m advocating that).

      BTW did you notice that the member I quoted above wrote “I’ve spoken to activist/office bearer members in dozens of branches all over the country (there are private networks that allow us to do this)”. Those private networks are necessary because Party HQ have centralised communication so that branches can only communicate with each other or even their own members through the Party’s email hub. That gives HQ the ability to block any communication that they don’t want to happen eg dissent within the membership. Divide and Rule – Stalin would be envious.

      I’m assuming that the lady you’re referring to is Joan Hutcheson the author of that post on Wings. The tale she tells is horrifying but from what I read here and on Wings is typical of the behaviour of the SNP hierarchy in ignoring not just the members but even elected officers of the Party. The rigging of Annual Conference and NEC meetings is disgusting and surely illegal. However if all the good people resign from the SNP that leaves it in the hands of Sturgeon and her Wokerati allies and lets them hijack the SNP voters at the May elections. Look at how all the Woke contenders for the SNP List positions are lying about their independence credentials and silent about their real agenda. The voters will think they’re voting for independence when actually they’re voting for GRA and McStasi.

      Liked by 1 person

  26. Best thing that can happen now is for NS to resign. She could do it and still retain some dignity. It would undoubtedly boost the party and the independence movement if the next FM is someone with the guts and intelligence to radically fight for independence.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Agreed! Though I don’t think the 2nd in command of SNP ATM is ANY better! In fact I’d go so far as to say is on par with the present FM… So while in the normal scheme of events I’d say it’s probably worth a shot, in this instance I’m more inclined to say I just don’t think so…

      Like

      1. Sorry – didn’t mean its not worth getting rid of the current FM. I do agree with you ABSOLUTELY that it really is! But I think we have to have a new FM that is NOT connected the current top of the SNP. Otherwise, we’re right back where we are at the moment…

        Liked by 1 person

  27. Ian, is it correct that SNP Head Office have not been paying the Branches their share of 2019 subs throughout 2020? Did they pay any of it in 2020?

    Regarding the redeployed staff to work on a future IndyRef2 I agree that this is simply smoke and mirrors to disguise their misuse of the”ring-fenced” donations. 600,000 is roughly 55% of their 2019 wages bill of 1.1 million, however presumably Pete Murrell and Sue Ruddick together are costing about 300K so the wage bill for their minions would be roughly 800K. So they are claiming that roughly 3/4 of the staff or 15-16 people are going to be”redeployed” onto IndyRef2. That raises the question about what happens to the work that those 15 people were previously doing? Answer: they’re going to continue doing the same activity and the 600K “spend” is just a fraudulent reclassification of the Head Office wage bill.

    The NEC stands in relation to the SNP as the Board of Directors in a public company. In a company the management would present a budget for the upcoming year for approval by the Directors and would report at each Board meeting the actual revenues and expenses versus budget for the latest period and the year-to-date so the Board can monitor the progress against the plan and take action if not satisfactory. Following year-end the Board approves the annual accounts to be issued to shareholders. (Ian, I’m sure your well aware of all this, but some of your readers may not) IMO the NEC as the SNP’s Board of Directors should be approving the Budget and be monitoring the Party’s financial situation via monthly financial statements and cash forecasts. My question is whether the NEC gets any of this information and if not who is monitoring the management of the Party? Stuart Campbell commented that the 2019 Accounts were issued without the NEC even seeing them.

    After reading what you’ve related about the latest NEC meeting I seriously question whether any of the decisions taken are legal. Failure to include motions, insufficient notice of other motions, the chair not allowing debate – this is a complete contempt for proper procedure. Sturgeon and Co are treating the NEC as a rubber-stamp for whatever they want to ram through. Added to the illegality of the “preference for self-IDed disabled & BAME” candidates it’s about time somebody challenged them in court.

    Liked by 2 people

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