SNP SURRENDER WELL UNDERWAY.

Indyref2: Ex SNP policy chief backs three-option ballot paper to break ‘logjam’

So after years of delay on taking Independence forward,  with the SNP busy creating and building up every possible delay and barrier since Nicola became leader, we are now entering the final betrayal as the SNP move to “condition” Scotland to accept the Independence Referendum being morphed into a referendum with three options including Devo Max as the third option on the ballot paper. A new “gold” standard is being devised to get timid and cowardly Nicola Sturgeon out the corner her duplicity has created. She is running out of time, the lies and excuses are now only achieving diminishing returns and more and more Independence supporters have lost all faith in the current SNP Leadership. New parties are emerging and growing.

I am very confused about this third option. Firstly by now having been promised the “most powerful devolved Parliament in the World” as part of the vow seven years ago is this a admission that it was all a lie? OK we all know it was but why would we want to believe any new pledges ever again about devo max when we were lied about it in 2014?

Would Devo Max allow us to rejoin the Single Market? Independence would!

Would it stop us being governed by London? Independence would!

Would it stop London ransacking Scotland’s assets to enrich themselves? Independence would!

Would it allow Scotland to close our land border with England to help control Covid?

Independence would!

Would Devo Max have stopped Tony Blair just annexing thousands of miles of the North Sea for England and amending the sea border as far north as Carnoustie? Independence would!

What possible benefit would Devo Max bring? I can work out the benefits for the SNP CAREERISTS with the big salaries and cushy jobs but what will it do for those living in Scotland. Those living in poverty on Universal Credit. Those seeing their jobs being lost because of Brexit. Those losing their jobs this very week because England has opted for herd immunity and the Treasury have closed their doors to furlough to force the “devolved” nations in this FOUR nations arrangement that Nicola supports to follow suit. 

Look at what is happening to the NHS in England, it is being privatised day by day. The treasury will use THE EXACT SAME TACTICS to force the SCOTTISH NHS to go down the privatisation road  by closing the door to the finance Scotland needs to keep it in public hands. Could DEVO MAX prevent this? Of course not, what you would get is SNP Politicians shouting from the rooftops “ we will never allow this, we will never let the NHS be privatised in Scotland” along the same lines as “ We will never allow Scotland to be dragged out of the EU against our wishes”. You need to learn from what happened there. Or the huge uproar over Westminster stripping powers from Holyrood. Remember that? That was going to be a huge war. It never happened did it? That is a “war” that has been quietly lost! That ladies and gentlemen is DEVOLUTION. YOU GET TO MOAN BUT YOU CAN STOP NOTHING OR DO ANYTHING BECAUSE POWER DEVOLVED IS POWER RETAINED. HOW WE CAN HAVE “NATIONALIST” POLITICIANS IN SCOTLAND WHO HAVE NOT WORKED THIS OUT YET IS BEYOND ME!

Chris Hanlon, the former Policy Chief who lost his position at the SNP Conference in November is clearly thinking this “announcement” is a good career move and gets him a few favourable nods and winks from the current leadership of the NEW SNP and I am sure he has been instructed to “test the water” Why do I think that? 

Well he is a guy who just lost his job in November. How many people have ever heard of Chris Hanlon. Not many I bet but!!!!

He is on the front page of Nicola’s NATIONAL. A NEWSPAPER THAT IS A NICOLA FAN CLUB PUBLICATION. I FIND IT IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE SHE WAS NOT ADVISED OF THE FRONT PAGE IN ADVANCE. No it’s ideal, plausible deniability if it all goes pear shaped, but note the poll at the bottom of the article, nothing is being left to chance.

Here is my forecast, Chris Hanlon is naive, he is being used. He should prepare for a big custard pie in the face this morning. He will take a pasting from Independence supporters, he may even face some stern public words of disapproval from Nicola Sturgeon herself, she may think this a clever ruse that lets her “prove” her commitment to Independence. Very useful to her when more and more people question that commitment. 

BUT, AND IT IS A HUGE BUT. Unionists will be delighted, they will argue that within the SNP there is a growing realisation that DEVO MAX is still a serious option. LABOUR will be saying that such a move would make it easier for Nicola to get her desire to “work closer” with Labour. Nine months down the line and Westminster will offer her a Section 30 for a “gold standard” referendum in 2023 on the basis of a 3 option referendum and she will reluctantly accept as “it was the only way a referendum could happen”. The sellout will then be complete. Run up the white flag, the Independence battle is being run by the tactically and strategically inept. Student politics rules!

I am, as always

Yours for Scotland

BEAT THE CENSORS

Sadly some sites had given up on being pro Indy sites and have decided to become merely pro SNP sites where any criticism of the Party Leader or opposition to the latest policy extremes, results in censorship being applied. This, in the rather over optimistic belief that this will suppress public discussion on such topics. My regular readers have expertly worked out that by regularly sharing articles on this site defeats that censorship and makes it all rather pointless. I really do appreciate such support and free speech in Scotland is remaining unaffected by their juvenile censorship. Indeed it is has become a symptom of weakness and guilt. Quite encouraging really.

89 thoughts on “SNP SURRENDER WELL UNDERWAY.

  1. This explains why Alex Neill proposed a third option of Devo Max on the Scottish Prism of 23 December. This option was politely but decisively shot down in flames by you and Alf for the reasons you have set out in your blog, Iain. However it looks as if it’s been well hot-housed within the SNP given that Alex, hardly one of Nikkla’s acolytes, gave it a public airing so recently.

    Liked by 20 people

      1. janicedonaldson: the answer tae that ane is, aw ye need tae ken! an’ if ye still hae ony doots please look up the Scottish Prism o’ 23rd December last.

        Liked by 1 person

  2. The oldest political trick in the book. Put an unofficial policy story out there and then rein it back or disown it.
    This was a Labour favourite when people still paid attention to them. They would claim a school or hospital was going to be closed and when it didn’t happen they claimed the credit for stopping it. It is a variation on the oldest technique in the bag of dirty tricks.

    As you rightly point out the article was launched to test reaction. However it also helps kick of management of expectations. The Sturgeon fan club are pretending they haven’t seen it.

    Here is my forecast. If and when a Referendum is ever held it will be big bad Westminster who insist on the three question framing in the Referendum. Sturgeon will “protest” but “reluctantly” agree. This plan is the obvious conclusion from all the groundwork we have seen being executed. Another few decades of Westminster Rule and Sturgeon keeps the Short Money flowing. She will protest that Westminster forced her hand and Whitehall will say nothing as they still keep control of Scotland.

    The spin of 1706/7 is getting refreshed. We are about to be sold out again by a few “politicians” putting some coins in their pockets.

    Liked by 29 people

    1. Yes we are being trussed up like a Christmas turkey. Again.
      From what I have seen this is a proposed amendment to the troublesome Treaty of Union to remove our status as a country in union.

      So I suggest we mitigate this by demanding any three option ballot has:
      Yes to independence
      Status Quo devolution – no amendment to the Treaty of Union
      Crown Dependency model – a known model, no back-of-a-fag-packet devo max

      I think we need to get on this hard and fast before this useless SNP SG actually turn us into a county of England – and I believe that is very much the plan here.

      Liked by 8 people

      1. Going to add: Given the true intent of this “devo max” Sturgeon and Westminster will push back on Crown Dependency – the counter strike I see is:
        Make clear people must have certainty – Crown Dependency is a known model
        Any devo max must provide the same level of detail and certainty as the established Crown Dependency model – BEFORE THE VOTE – exposing it as the muck fest it surely is planned to be

        Liked by 2 people

  3. Clearly the SNP leadership have sanctioned this idea to be ‘put out there’ just to say if it flies.

    Judging by the response of the SNP attack dogs and sheeple in The National, however, has as much chance of success as ovine aviation: it doesn’t so much take wing as plummet.

    Chris Hanlon has been accused of being a Unionist plant or, worse still, a secret Alba agent.

    But at least in the eyes of the Nicola loyal and blind brigade the Dear Leader is whiter and white and will lead us all to the Promised Land some day, somewhere, over the rainbow and far, far away …

    Liked by 25 people

  4. I can imagine the steam coming out of your ears this morning Iain. I know how I feel and I haven’t had the same degree of dedication!
    Being fair to Chris, I suspect he’s trying to find away to work with the limitations he has – namely a leadership who have no intentions of taking on the UK state.
    In terms of British plants, it feels like the SNP/Scottish Government are up there with Kew Gardens. The start of some phoney ‘negotiations’ will precede the next WM General Election. Any criticism by other Indy parties will be viewed as ‘rocking the boat’ or ‘wrecking the path to more powers’. The sights of the London press would then be focused on the real pro-Indy parties.

    Of course the beauty of a 3 question referendum, (including a devo max option) is that it ABSOLUTELY rules out a referendum which hasn’t been sanctioned by London.

    Liked by 17 people

      1. Sturgeon has done such an awful job that there is a very real risk in any referendum with our flawed franchise and the third option would be expected to win. It probably will. The easiest way to spike their guns Iain is to demand the third option is the Crown Dependency known model. We need to fight for that and fight it hard.

        The Crown Dependencies are actually outside of the UK and can make their own trade deals. If we focus on that then the intent here to roll out a horrible, duplicitous devo max and alter the Treaty of Union is spiked. The down side is Westminster retains control of defense.

        Liked by 4 people

  5. Dear heavens! Why oh why can the cult followers not see they are being duped and controlled.
    The ‘control’ of New SNP was shown by Sturgeon’s pathetic lapdog Swinney yesterday when, in answer to a question on shortening the ‘isolation’ time to 7 days, he said ‘ we cannot RELEASE people into the community earlier’.
    Yes, RELEASE!
    A word that usually means ‘let out of prison’ or animals ‘let out of a cage, trap or off a leash’.
    It shows exactly what a Junta his travesty of a party has become.

    Liked by 20 people

  6. DevoMax is faux independence for softies. Westminster stays the presiding power.
    SNP parades the yellow stripe of fabulous federalism.
    The cringe becomes the kowtow.
    Covid vaxx contraindications: possible confusion, insecurity, disorientation, hallucination.
    Do not operate machinery or lead a political party.

    Liked by 12 people

    1. They will also alter the Treaty of Union Ottomanboi – we will be Catalonia and Sturgeon will be thrilled. We need to kick devo max out and make Crown Dependency the only acceptable third option.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Marion ordinarily I agree with everything you post but I am sorry I vehemently disagree with ANY alteration to ENDING THE TOU and independence , any alteration is a submission to WM and an indication that we are WEAK

        As Iain has highlighted in this post repeatedly ANY alteration to independence STILL leaves WM in charge

        Liked by 5 people

      2. why do you want crown dependency. it is dependency on the crown, therefore Westminster. this is no further forward then where we are at present. arguably further back as it will destroy what little momentum is left in the independence movement. it is seriously as if you are testing the waters for crown dependency, getting the idea into the publics mind so that when it is announced as policy by the newSNP it wont seem like the unforgivable betrayal that it is. if you want scotland to be independent, you campaign for independence, nothing less. at this point in history there is nothing to be gained by anything less then independence and anything short of that entirely reasonable and achievable goal is a catastrophic failure to everyone that has ever wanted independence, to ourselves and worst of all to our children.

        Liked by 2 people

  7. The new policy development convenor is off to a flying start – what would you say might be the priorities in preparing for indy? Getting on with the Scottish Reserve Bank maybe? Getting the reality of the risk to our nhsScotland out there? No, we are to be told (as if its not already been done to death) how indy Scotland will get back into the EU, something which cannot begin until we have indy. Maybe I’m stuck in a recurring dream/nightmare………

    Liked by 13 people

  8. The fact that the Devo Max idea isn’t being well received might not be enough to put “Scotland’s mammy” off going ahead with it. After all, she knows what’s good for us, better than we do ourselves. Besides, the suspicion is that she is being directed from elsewhere.

    Liked by 17 people

    1. I’m inclined to think that her appearance at COP26 was more to do with her survival than the planets. But first she has a ‘little task’ to perform.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Those with a fragile personality do not reverse or think again but plough on obstinately into whatever mire awaits. They will always have an escape route for themselves, though, even as the project flounders and sinks around them.

        Liked by 1 person

  9. The Betrayal just goes on and on with Sturgeons SNP , mandate after mandate one excuse after another. People must she is a Unionist now . Sturgeon has dragged the SNP into a mire they will never get out of unless they jettison her as Leader ASAP.
    Devo Max is a Trojan Horse for business as usual in the UK,OK state. Nothing of any significance changes with no real control over anything ,Trident is still on the Clyde, No control over foreign policy . No control over the Economy and how does Devo Max get me back into Europe. The internal market bill ensures that Westminster has the veto over everything. So I am still a 2nd class colonial citizen. A first class colonial citizen in Northern Ireland can get a referendum to extricate thereself from the corupt rotten union every 7 years and stay in EU. Does Sturgeon SNP think I would accept anything less. Sturgeon time to move aside you’ve had your chance and blown it, we need someone more able and astute someone with the courage to upset our colonial masters, not the damp Unionist squib you have become.

    Liked by 19 people

  10. Dare I say it but I think this will be Sturgeon route after Johnson refuses her S30 option, already the millionaire knight of the realm and leader of the Labour party Sir Keir Starmer has Gordon Brown drawing up plans, on “rewiring” Scotland’s relationship within the union, Starmer said so in his keynotes speech in Birmingham the other day.

    Meanwhile on the indyfront an FoI finds there’s been no movement on it since 2014 by the SNP.

    https://gettr.com/post/pm5sp6466e

    Liked by 14 people

  11. The dead hand of the Murrells is clearly behind this. She will only get the high-profile UN or multi-national agency job she craves by playing ball with Westminster; and to do this, she needs to stymie Independence.

    A three option paper will become: “The best deal we could get in the circumstances,” and so on. “Devo Max” will win and Westminster will screw Scotland totally in the following negotiotions, by which time Lady Sturgeon of Dreghorn has jetted-off to New York or Geneva or Luxembourg – job done.

    Liked by 18 people

  12. Your analysis of this latest tiresome reel by the White Feather Club seems spot-on Iain : one can easily imagine how such appeasement would suit the ” Independence , What’s That ? ” mob down to the ground …..

    Allowing Sturgeon to achieve canonisation as St Nicola of the Progressive Heart ( Holyrood as a * Woke * Lourdes ) : bringing Wishart’s dreams of a knighthood and entry to House of Lards that bit closer , his Tweedledumb partner Blackfraud by his side , having exhausted all the things Scotland could be and was dragged-out of : the eternal ” Tory Bad ” cop-out mantra to absolve all responsibility for incessant failure , and , of course , the generous salaries and pensions available to some who would struggle to find work as dog-walkers .

    Yip , permanent Devolution must be mighty attractive to a whole lot of these charlatans .

    Would it fly though ? Would it not be just as likely – if this * Devo-Max * was a 3rd option in a Ref – that committed , no compromise , Independence Only supporters would not participate ?

    I know I wouldn’t . If they try this shit they can ram-it

    Liked by 11 people

  13. It’s the old, re-heated, stepping-stone to full independence routine. “stuck in a recurring dream/nightmare………” Yes indeed, @annie. Devo-Max, in my opinion, is exactly the consensus that any Convention on independence peopled by Scotland’s great-and-good would also arrive at. Anything, anything at all, apart from full and unequivocal independence will do nicely, sir.

    Liked by 12 people

    1. “It’s the old, re-heated, stepping-stone to full independence routine”
      Indeed
      Stepping stones will stretch out for as far as the eye can see as Westminster will salami-slice any concessions they are compelled to make on the route to Scottish Independence.

      Liked by 3 people

  14. This kite flying cannot stand. Surely SNP members remaining must see the leadership failings now.

    Hopefully a surge in ALBA membership will result. I favour a general election plebiscite. “Yes” puts up a single candidate, if they win a majority – or a coalition majority, then negotiations for independence begin. Completion in two years.

    If the SNP do not support the plebiscite then we ask the individual SNP candidates to sign the YES pledge. If they don’t then we stand YES candidates against them.

    The SNP are fast running out of money, members and goodwill. I doubt they will be able to mount much of a campaign in May.

    Police Scotland remain a disgrace.

    Liked by 20 people

  15. Instead of a way out for the SNP this is surely another nail in the S30/Referendum option as we already have a form of watered down Devo Max and plebiscite elections must be the way forward.Why on earth would you vote for new powers that are still under the control of Westminster meaning that even with Devo Max the Scottish Government would still be under Westminster,s thumb.The biggest change would be no change whatsoever but would give Westminster the right to say this is what the Scottish people voted for.This is just muddying the waters to make sure that the elected members of the SNP keep their cosy little numbers and large salaries, just another trough to stick their snouts in. It boils down to do you want Scotland to be an Independent Country and control our own affairs or do we just want a lukewarm version of Independence where we are still overseen by the colonial administrators of another Country and Parliament ? Only Yes or No will do, there should be no Maybe on a ballot paper.

    Liked by 13 people

  16. It’s the Dirty War Iain. Just like Ireland. They come, they corrupt, they influence, they threaten, they bribe, they control the media, they use the police and prosecution to intimidate and incarcerate opponents, and like Ireland, make no mistake, they will kill if they find it expedient to keep their colony.

    The SNP today is a hollowed out Independence Party.

    Read today’s Carlton Jock about Starmer’s proposals to promote Devolution Max. Coincidental how an arch unionist party like Labour is now on the same page as the faux Independence SNP.

    All part of the Great British colonial shit show where against an emasculated independence movement huge numbers of our citizens shiver unable to heat their homes because of fuel poverty, and or have to rely on food banks, and have all control of their country’s key economic levers and natural resources removed. But then again, a twenty first century iteration of a peasant Ireland of the 19th and early 20th century.

    History repeats – but Ireland did become independent, and like Ireland we are going to have to fight for it, or else crawl under the yolk of colonialism.

    Liked by 20 people

    1. yes willie they will fight a dirty war as they did in Ireland at the war of independence and northern ireland during the
      civil rights era and the fightback. Anyone remember willie MacRae’s mysterious death?

      Like

  17. I’m not sure if it is surrender or total capitulation. It definately looks like cowardice from the outset of Sturgeon’s time in office, or maybe she been on the unionist side from the start. She will certainly go down in history with all the other detested traitors to Scotland and there are plenty of them.

    It is interesting that quite a number of the Nicola comments below the line in the National are showing hostility to Sturgeon, these same critical comments are mob attacked by the same diminishing Sturgeon only lot that frequent WGD with their nonsense and total ignorance.

    As we know the SNP leadership has from 2016 has clearly not been advancing the case for independence in any way, in fact the reverse, they have simply been running down the clock. Where are the impassioned and energising speeches that we heard from Alex Salmond in 2014? Sturgeon is a fraud and has been from the start. Everything she has done is self promotion, culminating in both votes ME and ME only. So what is the real plan? I would suggest Caltonjock has an excellent summery of the situation we are now in, see the blog linked below. I could add more to that but prefer to stay out of jail in the now toxic situation we in Scotland are now in. She and her manipulators have demonstrated their commitment to defeating us.

    https://caltonjock.com/2022/01/04/the-most-important-blog-i-have-ever-posted-a-sturgeon-and-starmer-partnership-agreement-is-evolving-fast-leading-to-devomax-and-retention-of-the-nuclear-deterrent-in-scotland/

    Liked by 13 people

  18. It was quite an eye-catching headline to be sure. I do not subscribe to the The National and couldn’t find a copy to read what Mr Hanlon was saying. Bottomline: I haven’t read the article. But the concept of “Devo Max” interests me. I suppose it literally means that Scotland would have the maximum possible devolution compatible with the continuing existence of the 1707 Union. That is hard to quantify. In the past “Devo-Max” has been linked to “full fiscal autonomy” within the Union which is also a difficult concept. I understand it to mean that Scotland would raise all of its own tax revenue which would require all UK companies and branches to set up permanent establishments in Scotland to allow for separate tax, with Scotland being able to raise all the finance it might require in UK and international markets. This would be exceptionally difficult. The devolution of Corporate Tax would be far more difficult than that of Income Tax . There would be no more Barnet consequentials and agreement would have to be reached on Scotland’s payment to the Union to fund defence/foreign embassies etc. It is most unlikely that Westminster would allow unlimited separate Scottish borrowing as the UK would have to be the “payor” and lender of last resort. The North Sea oil industry would be very unhappy to be run from and taxed by Edinburgh.

    If “Devo-Max” merely means the most “powerful powerful” devolved parliament in the world, with a few more devolutionary powers thrown in, then it looks like a damp squip. If you mean “full fiscal autonomy” then that would be a game-changer but it is not a viable regime in my view.
    Despite this, the Basque government has a “full fiscal autonomy” type relationship with Madrid. The only difference is that the Basque economy is much stronger than the Spanish economy.

    Happy New Year

    William Ross

    Like

    1. It is very much a Basque/Catalan situation William: currently we are a country with a gutless incompetent as a leader. This devo max would alter the Treaty of Union and make us an integral part of EnglandAsBritain.

      Liked by 13 people

  19. Committed indy supporter of long-standing discovers plans by the leadership to scupper independence by running a three-way referendum. Despite the best efforts of the bloggers the SNP sheep refuse to countenance that Nicola would sell them out and the story dies. Hanlon then pens an article proposing exactly that three-option indyref while making the weakest possible case for devo max. Hey presto, devo max bounces to the top of the agenda and the SNP high heid yins now have to come clean or guarantee that the choice will be indy or status quo. Great work Chris!

    Liked by 1 person

      1. Show me a single tweet or speech of Chris’s before today’s drivel that indicates he would ever entertain devo max. It’s like Boris Johnson saying that he could see some benefits of socialism. The article has been written to flush out Sturgeon and her fellow betrayers and I welcome it.

        Like

    1. If that’s REALLY the motive behind this , fair enough , personally , I’m not convinced it is GC . I think Iain’s take on this is far more plausible

      Liked by 3 people

      1. Fair enough, I always have great respect for Iain’s views. At least Chris’s piece has provoked a debate, that’s what matters.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Keep in mind how many SNP supporters believed St Nicola had a secret plan when in fact she was just a sell out. Fool me once …

        Liked by 12 people

  20. You can imagine the conversations behind the scenes. They have run out of road on postponing a referendum, a policy they have managed to maintain for 8 years. Now the pressure is on to finally have one, they have come up with ruse to ensure it is a damp squib which will keep real independence off the menu. Even better, in their eyes it ensures the continuation of one party rule under devolution for the foreseeable future. Or did you think the constant hysteria about Alba, the connivance of the paid for media in ignoring and trolling them, was a coincidence?
    No, the only goal is power. And what they seek is ‘power max’ – that is indefinite power for the SNP clique around Sturgeon, without the hassle, responsibility or danger to their positions that independence would represent – and it is clear that many of them never considered it a priority, or even a desirable goal. The SNP under Sturgeon has become a vehicle for the ambitions of middle class politicians who want a nicely padded career with benefits. The last thing they want is the disruption of independence and the threat to their administrators benefits and salaries – salaries none of them would be able to earn outside the cosy nostra of the SNP. And of course there is also the added bonus of hiding behind Westminster for the multiple inadequacies and failures of their rule, diverting any criticism of their feeble efforts on to the wicked and evil tories.
    Meanwhile, the gravy trains of jobs, pensions, consultancies and all manner of perks will continue, and their obsessions with social change, which nobody has asked for, can be indulged, whatever the objections of Scots people.
    What a result!

    Liked by 12 people

  21. Devo Max is no substitute for Independence, as no form of Devo Max could deprive Westminster of its assumed unlimited Sovereignty over the whole of the UK, as Westminster’s current and permanent overwhelming majority of English MPs will never countenance it. Until this is fully and extremely carefully addressed, every Devo Max will be as dependent on the permanent good will and good faith of Westminster’s negotiators and its English MPs as is the current Devo Max.

    Would Devo Max limit Westminster’s unlimited Sovereignty over the non-English nations of the UK? No, but Independence would!

    Would Devo Max remove the power of England’s huge majority of MPs to overrule those of the other nations? No, but Independence would!

    That unlimited Sovereignty or the overwhelming majority of England’s MPs who wield it have to go. That is the entirety of our problem.

    Liked by 8 people

    1. Crown Dependency removes us from the UK, allows us to make our own trade deals but retains defense – not the best but the only acceptable third option

      Liked by 2 people

      1. I totally agree Iain – we will vote YES but will Scotland vote YES under this incompetent and authoritarian SG? I do suspect that the vote might well go for any third option – keep in mind the poisonous franchise we have with Sturgeon in the driving seat. Sturgeon has alienated so many voters with her incompetence and extremism. Many would now not trust her and her cabal to shape iScotland. We should make sure that any third option is Crown Dependency, not Broons vow mk 2. We have to make sure there is nothing on that ballot paper that leaves us in this union and allows any changes to the Treaty of Union.

        Making sure that any third option is a known working model that retains our status as a country should not impact how hard we campaign for independence. Removing Trident would be a key argument.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Fearghas – currently that is the US. It might become the EU. I’d like Scotland to be neutral and if we have to have a third option it cannot rule out our future defense ownership – and so long as we retain our status as a country that is enshrined in international law I believe. They are out to remove our status as a country – that is the third option Broon will have with all its wee bells and whistles – somewhere in there Scotland will cease to be.

        Liked by 4 people

  22. Sturgeon needs challenged to denounce devo max, but even if she does will it matter. She is not to be trusted. Is any politician for that matter?

    Devo max needs outed for what it is, over and over, and let’s not forget it is the brain-child of Gordy from the Crypt – another trustworthy chap who sold us down the river so many times and in ways we will be paying for a long time from now.

    Devo max is getting into bed with unionist parties, with labour in a comfy slippers trough-fest that they hope would be self-perpetuating and gravy for ever.

    Are we going to let them divide, conquer and serially banquet on our watch with us paying the bill?

    This needs killed stone-dead!

    Liked by 13 people

    1. Gordy from the Crypt has already been scribbling a revised constitution I suspect. The mind boggles. Kick this out and kick it out far – use the Crown dependency as the third option. The vow was a lie, the negotiations with the EU a duplicitous farce and the UKG has shown it cannot keep its word. If there is to be a third option it must be an established third model that is proven in practice. Scotland is not a guinea pig for Gordy from the Crypts constitutional experiments.
      *Also need to ensure this Crown Dependency option retains out status as a country with the UN – very much the target here I believe.

      Liked by 3 people

  23. Sadly, the sheer ignorance of the general population will win.

    All polls give the SNP big wins everywhere at every government and representation level.

    That’s the dictatorship of the ignorant.

    We, here, are an elite of politics nerds, but the Facebook rabble are well and truly mushroomed (kept in the dark and fed shite).

    Scottish independence has withered and died on the vine under the beady eye of the fearties.
    All Is lost.

    It will take more than a generation to cleanse the damage done by the Murrels.
    It will be really, really dire when all the deceit, theft and treason will float back up from the Saint Nicola’s Party cesspit.

    Her failure will set back Scotland for decades and negatively affect the opportunities for women to access power as well.

    I’m only left with contempt and disdain, but I’m not ready to invest a strong sentiment as hate for her and her acolytes: it’s too much. They don’t deserve it.

    Liked by 8 people

    1. I’m wary of the Polls. By the end of 2020, in the lead up to the SNP’s convention – where in theory there was enough grumbling in the background to support a vote of no confidence in Oor Nikla, they magically went up into the 50%’s… but never up to 60% (the SNP’s own red line in the sand). Once Brexit was finally over the line by the end of Jan 2021, panic over, and for no apparent reason, the number went back down again, thus reducing the ‘justification’ to start the Indy campaigne in ernest.
      I’m not saying all of them are rigged, but would it really be so difficult for the British Establishment to twist a few, at critical moments in time.

      Liked by 5 people

      1. ” but would it really be so difficult for the British Establishment to twist a few, at critical moments in time.”

        No , it wouldn’t Daisy . The pattern you describe is * awfully * convenient , likewise the just one short of an overall majority outcome of last May’s SE and many other convenient events and circumstances that * coincidentally * provide excuses for further inaction by the Nicola Stoogeon Party

        Liked by 1 person

  24. i am 100% against Trident and Coulport existence in Scotland. Neither Devomax nor Crown Dependency is acceptable to me.as defence and foreign policy are retained by Westminster and so Scotland would continue to host Trident and the Coulport weapons store, and have nuclear warheads driven by truck through Scotland.

    Perfidious Albion has been my career business experience, and UK defence has no meaning or worth for Scotland’s defence in my view, Any threat to Scotland’s security would be viewed, and policy determined, by Westminster’s best interests.
    Remember “Sir” Tony Blair chose to parcel off some of Scotland’s water territory and oil and gas reserves to England, just because he could, and we, Scotland could do nothing to prevent him.He also engaged with the USA in lying about Irag’s weapons, and took us into an illegal war, just because he could, and we, Scotland could do nothing to prevent him.

    Lean back in your chair and contemplate – We voted by 62% to remain in the EU, we’re out.

    Alva, population 5,200, is opening a food bank.

    There is talk about positioning “mini” nuclear stations throughout the UK for power generation. Nuclear facilities need armed guards, happy to host such a mini station in your town?

    We are sitting ducks, bobbing around, subjected to England’s whims.

    Liked by 15 people

    1. My point Velofello is that if they are putting a third option on the ballot we cannot risk it being Broons poisonous vow mk 2. Make certain it is the Crown Dependency model. We don’t want it but we sure as hell don’t want Broons vow mk 2.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. I agree with marionl99 that, IF there was a 3 way referendum, we MUST ensure that any third option is defined in advance.

        Preferably the whole thing will be killed stone dead.

        Liked by 1 person

  25. The New SNP has been telling us for the last 7yrs, Scotland parliament is at risk from the Tories. So what would be the point of offering to the Tories Devo-Madmax as a third option in a referendum when 1 no unionist would ever and agree to it and 2 no Sturgeonite or nationalist would ever want it.

    As I’ve mentioned before the cul-de-sack the New SNP has put themselves in with regards to a Section 30 order and the stupid phrase the Gold Standard and what are we now seeing is Nicola Sturgeon is a very immature Politician and she still had a lot to learn but most importantly she was foolish in dismissing Alex Salmond as a nobody.

    Here was me thinking 2022 was going to be Booooooooooring how I got that one wrong, the Alba Party may have to get bigger premisses if the New SNP are going to go ahead with the Devo-Madmax and if I know Sturgeon as we all do, the wo-MAN not for changing.

    Liked by 6 people

  26. Deos anyone in the New SNP know its a party for Independence and why isn’t the Rag oops The National having a quite word or are they so scared in losing funding from Sturgeon.

    Liked by 6 people

  27. Sturgeon, some bloody leader of an independence movement. She has been in charge for 7 years and here we are are arguing about third options. Sturgeon will NEVER EVER deliver independence. Sturgeon and her gang need to go.

    Liked by 15 people

    1. I think it is worse than that Cubby – Sturgeon and her Westminster buddies can see the writing on the wall now. They know that they can’t hold back the tide much longer so they must move while they have their gutless placeperson as FM. This third option is what they plan as their escape route and it will be toxic – very toxic – and it will remove our status as a country either in plain print or hidden away someplace. The voting franchise means this third option is a very real threat – and it is a threat we have got to neutralise.

      Liked by 7 people

  28. Power, or what passes for such, is «devolved» by the grace and favour of the devolver who may reverse the process. The tokenism of «devolution» is the virus intended to see off full national sovereignty, it has little to do with better governance far more with retention of real power at the centre.
    Devo was a con trick from the start.

    Liked by 14 people

  29. It was interesting reading the national the other day there. The year ahead section did have indy ref 2 but is was the smallest and tucked away at the bottom right hand section. No big emphasis at all.

    Liked by 5 people

  30. James Kelly has an interesting take on this. However…….

    As a 50 year+ supporter of and worker for Independence I just can’t accept anything less than full Independence. I can’t accept Trident; I can’t accept the risk that a criminal like Blair could lead us into illegal wars; I can’t accept that the English government can alienate countries which would be our allies if we were Independent.

    I see this as a ploy to soften people up. Introduce an unpopular idea, withdraw it, modify it and just keep punting it in a more or less sleekit way until enough people start believing what is being offered would solve Scotland’s problems. Only Independence will solve our problems not some halfway house which can be manipulated by the English government. We need to get rid of the whole rotten set up – no monarch, aristocracy, House of Lords, etc.

    I don’t trust the Murrell/Sturgeon clique to negotiate for Scotland so I have to hold out for Independence.

    Liked by 16 people

  31. Crown Dependency – like dependence on Prince Andrew and his family? Really?

    In days of olde I suppose the guy who was the cleverest, strongest and most ruthless became the gang leader, and with human social “development” the word king was thought up to add “majesty” to the position of gang leader.

    Crown Dependency would allow Scotland to set up trade deals – any know how our southern neighbour behaved towards Scotland over the Darien affair?

    We are in a union with a country, an administration, that fiddles the accounts to show Scotland runs a financial deficit.

    That poisoned a Scottish island with myxomatosis.

    That ignored Scotland’s wish to remain in the EU, denied Scotland any say in the EU negotiations.

    That in discussion with EU over fishing rights refused Scotland a say, indeed the Scots representative was required to sit outside the meeting room as discussions proceeded.

    Why oh why would we wish to enable England any say via a Crown Dependency scam?

    With independence what we do not need is England having any say in our affairs.

    No man is an island they say, nor I would add is a country – in non-physical terms. Return to the EU as an independent country, interacting and cooperating with member states of equal status is my wish.

    As regards Sturgeon, the sooner she and her scarlet pimpernel husband disappear the better for Scotland.

    Liked by 13 people

    1. The name is daft but the template would be sound so long as we remain a country – I’m not sure Crown Dependencies are countries. Basically we need to make damn sure option 3 does not change the Treaty of Union. This is what they want to do. they will put some sweeties on the table to get there. This is the biggest danger for us. That is why I think using the “know, tries and tested” argument to secure this template+retain our status as a country for option 3 is important. I won’t vote for it – I’ll vote for independence. But how sure are we Scotland will not vote for sweeties on the table? We need to close this exposure.

      you say:
      Crown Dependency would allow Scotland to set up trade deals – any know how our southern neighbour behaved towards Scotland over the Darien affair?
      But England is weak now – a pariah and she is no longer allowed to carry out blockade.

      Like

    2. velofello, i could not have put it better. trust our southern neighbour which spent most of the time we were
      independent invading us or trying to destabilize our economy. we don’t need a colonial master. Time for our own decisions (but step aside Sturgeon, you have no intention to deliver independence)

      Liked by 2 people

  32. Trying to risk assess it from a Union Jack perspective, bet they are hating that its only 7 years since the Vow. On top of shitty Brexit, on top of shitty Covid…. on top of shitty Boris.

    From their perspective, it’s not nearly enough time lapsed for comfort. (Bet they are praying that time whisks Gordon Brown off this mortal coil prior to any campaign, can’t see a replay of him going down well with anyone.)

    However, it potentially splits the yes vote, and they must be pinning a great deal of hope on the ‘white flight settler’ demographics to swing the vote their way.

    So, tactics…. we highlight the damage of Brexit, and the potential of EFTA. Can only be done with Indy.

    I had heard from someone knowlegable that there was no need for Alba to canvass the damage Brexit was doing, because the SNP will be covering that ground soon. Hmmm, in view of the above I don’t think they will be.

    We keep Indy Plebiscite GE very much on the cards and as route 1…. and we refuse to take it off the table.

    As for DevoMax, realistically there is no way they can offer it (and it would take years to negotiate, if actually being done in good faith) – they would have to show the real accounts for a start, and then they would have to admit, England is bankrupt without Scotland’s assets.

    They keep on about a Neverendum, I think we shouldn’t be shy of using the meme on Film titles

    Devo Max, DevoMax2, Devo Nowt – Devo Never – Devo and Die, Devo Max with a Vow, etc. Never Ending Devo (Never Sending Devo), Sturgeons Choice, The Wizard of Devo.

    One good thing, its creating clear indy water between the SNP and Alba.

    Liked by 10 people

    1. That’s exactly it, Daisy. Consideration of anything other than independence is for the deluded or fools. All and any suggestions of devolution in whatever form must be questioned rigorously and with vigour. We could always go back to the old Malky cartoon, where it’s asked “What’s the difference between evolution and devolution? – devolution takes longer.”

      Liked by 4 people

  33. ‘This needs killed stone-dead!’

    I’m still trying to think about this from a tactical perspective. And actually, I think its going to clarify Indy support very, very quickly.

    Devo max on the ballot paper in 2014 would have won by a landslide, but now? after Brexit? after Boris? after Covid?

    The soft No’s of 2014 have a very different government experience to vote from now. A lot of them have been betrayed by the broken vow, by Brexit. And Nikla is like a broke Covid record now, even those who like her can’t be doing with her ‘presentations’.

    Of course that leaves Robertson and Smith to take over – lets do all we can to ensure they end up at each others throats fighting for it, shall we? After all they are both so, so able.

    It also leaves the English vote. We should be looking at splitting that vote in favour of Yes. We know that most of them vote tory. Do they want to live in broken Britian, in a part of Britain that is particularly and deliberately broken by people with their accents, or do they want to live in a country with a similar wealth and set up to Norway? Including an NHS?

    On an emotional level, (which is how people vote, remember) if they can be persuaded (even on a tactical level) to vote for Devo Max, then we’ve won a significant change in stance from them. Perhaps even enough to persuade them not to vote in any such Referendum if it happens.

    I think pushing for a Devo Nowt question on the ballot will finish the SNP, but I don’t think it will finish Indy. I’ll bet there will be some genuine (and secret) polling carried out behind the scenes if this gets pushed further.

    Liked by 5 people

  34. Diversionary or divisionary tactics? Probably both.

    Time to do some deep breathing exercises.

    For I expect, there’s a lot more coming down the track from our masters, that’ll make this seem like small beer….

    Liked by 2 people

  35. The mere fact that within the comments options, or alternatives to Devo Max are being touted demonstrates just how Doun Hauden the mindset is. Scotland’s Independence is not going to be decided by some hypothetical range of tick box options approved by Westminster and the SNP IN SOME PHONEY REFERENDUM. We must rid the movement of that colonial mindset and campaign on oor ain terms an’ condeetions.

    Liked by 6 people

  36. Some wonderful fiction writers in the comments tonight .

    It was Alex Salmond who admitted at a meeting in the Highlands post 2014 that he was astonished that the U.K. government had not insisted on a Devomax option on the ballot paper, and he would have lived with that.

    This a classic attempt by a party Alba going nowhere trying to undermine the Party it has a visceral hatred of. It’s a set up. If anything it will redouble the SNP’s leadership’s efforts to deliver a Referendum we will win.

    Like

    1. Ah yes it’s Alba’s control of the media, especially the National that is the reason, not to ignore that it is an SNP MEMBER on the Party’s policy Committee that gave the story to the National. You put forward convincing an alternative theory mind. On the redoubling bit 2times zero is still zero.

      Liked by 6 people

    2. Some wonderful fiction writers tonight you say Mr McCormick.

      Seems very much that political discourse has gotten your dander up. Pejorative name calling is usually the sign of a lost argument. Maybe you’ve been on the sauce to write a comment like that.

      Simple fact is, and there was huge discussion, debate on the matter at the time, but the 2014 referendum asked the simple question of whether Scotland should or shouldn’t be an independent country. It didn’t ask if Scotland would prefer what is now being described as something called Devomax.

      Not difficult therefore to understand why many think this proposal from the SNP is an abandonment of independence. But of course you are it seems more than aware of this when in your latter comments you describe Alba as a party going nowhere.

      Maybe that is a question better asked of the SNP.

      Otherwise, a good New Year to you, and if the sauce be your poison, a good resolution would be to lay off it and get on with constructive debate. We are, or should all be on the same side, and no I don’t, although you do, see visceral hatred.

      Liked by 7 people

  37. Margo McDonald said that devolution was a trap. I agree. It’s about time that we laid out in detail the difference between the current `settlement` and independence. The SNP has never done this. No vision has ever been presented of how Scotland could actually look, or what life in Scotland could actually be like that was not a pale imitation of life in the UK. That needs a complete overhaul. This idea that Standing Up for Scotland should included defending many of our corrupt and incompetent institutions is delusional – all it does is make the case for devolution, not independence.

    Liked by 5 people

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