THE RESPONSE WAS MASTERFUL

Lots of people who read this blog regularly are very impressed by regular columnist Mia when arguing her case for Scotland. This series on the Claim of Right sees Mia in her element. she writes the most devastating replies to challenges, in a very polite and proper way, but devastating none the less. Earlier this week she wrote a lengthy response to another reader who, also politely challenged and disputed the main article on the Claim of Right. Today and tomorrow I plan to publish Mia’s reply as it often both explains and illustrates, in an understandable form, the opportunities and importance of the Claim of Right.

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@daveytee19

“So what’s a sovereign state? The dictionary says, IMO quite correctly, that it’s a state with a defined territory that administers its own government and is not subject to or dependent on another power”

Wonderful. 

That is exactly what Scotland was when it entered voluntarily into the International Treaty of Union 1707. It could not possibly be any other way, because to enter a treaty you have to have capacity and competence. I hope that unless until here we both agree.

Now let’s take a look at Article 6 of the Vienna Convention in the Law of Treaties:

Article 6 – “Capacity of States to conclude treaties”
“Every state possesses capacity to conclude treaties”

What this article implies is that a state does not lose its statehood by entering a treaty. From this, the conclusion is that Scotland did not give away its sovereignty and statehood by entering into an international Treaty. It lent it. If you look in the treaty of union you will see that nowhere it says Scotland has to give up its parliament. Nor it says anywhere that it cannot open another one or one hundred if it so wishes, whenever it likes.

This fantastic series of articles about the Claim of Right clearly shows a Scottish constitution that is very much alive and that declares absolute rule unlawful. The Claim of Right, an expression of that constitution, is what underpins the Treaty of Union. If the nobility in 1707 were giving away Scotland’s sovereignty on signing the treaty, they would have never bothered demanding the Claim of Right to be a fundamental condition of the Treaty, nor the keeping of Scotland’s crown, seal and a mint in Scotland, or a separate body of law for Scotland and another few things. They clearly had a very strong determination to keep Scotland’s nationhood and distinctiveness in perpetuity. That is not what a nation who is ready to surrender its sovereignty does.

I think you find that the perception of loss of sovereignty is a fabrication through continuous and calculated misinformation and erosion, accompanied by a relentless attack on Scotland’s language and heritage.

I invite you to read about the Malt Tax and the 1713 attempt to repeal the Union. At that point, only 6 years after the treaty of union had been signed, Scotland’s representatives, in both the house of commons and the house of lords, did not appear to believe your version that Scotland had surrendered its sovereignty in perpetuity, hence it could no longer dissolve the treaty and end the union. At that time, they brought a bill to parliament to end the treaty of union and they lost by just a handful of votes.

I have no doubt that had those Scottish MPs be sitting in a parliament in Scotland and the union would have ended in 1713. Scotland got its parliament back in 1999, so there is nothing stopping a majority of pro indy MSPs passing an Act to repeal the Act of Union and end the treaty in the same parliament where the Act of Union was passed back in 1706.

I am convinced that it is precisely to hide this fact that we are being fed over and over again the idea that Holyrood is an appendage of Westminster and it has to abide by Westminster rules and therefore it does not have power even to open its own doors. I think this is nonsense because because those sitting in that parliament are not elected by England MPs. They are elected by us, the people of Scotland. We decide who sits in those seats, not England MPs. Therefore we decide what that parliament has power for and for what not.

So whose opinion are we to consider more credible, that of those that had witnessed the signature of the treaty and knew the conditions in the treaty were not a mere decoration and were prepared to end the Treaty of Union back in 1713, or the England MPs of today, the disinformation units funded by England as the UK government and the useful idiots north and south of the border bribed to help preserve the union?

I most certainly trust far more the judgement of those MPs in 1706.

On the 12 March 2019, there was a heated discussion in Westminster regarding the “Withdrawal Agreement: Legal Opinion”. The discussion was not about the Treaty of Union, as you can imagine. it was about the backstop and NI Protocol. The discussion was a lot around the fact that this protocol did not have an explicit exit clause, just like the Treaty of Union 1707 does not have one.

England MPs were fretting about how to exit the Withdrawal agreement quickly and on demand without an explicit exit clause. If like you say the Treaty of Union was irreversible because it does not have an exit clause, so it would be the NI Protocol the MPs were discussing on 12 March 2019.

Well, you would be delighted to find out that this is not the case at all. If there was something all MPs agreed was in the fact that the Protocol , without its exit clause, could still be ended.

It appeared to be common knowledge in the UK parliament that you would always be able to exit an international treaty without an exit clause if you could demonstrate that your partner used “bad faith”. This is in reference to Article 26 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties:

Article 26
“Pacta sunt servanda”
“Every treaty in force is binding upon the parties to it and must be performed by them in good faith”

Well, the England MPs, were really concerned about having to rely only on the EU’s “bad faith” to be able to exit the protocol on their say so. It was obvious that most MPs thought they would not be able to prove easily that the EU was operating in bad faith. At the end of the day the EU is not like perfidious Albion, is it? 

What they were saying is that not having an exit clause does not mean you can not exit the treaty, it means that in normal circumstances you may have to rely on being able to demonstrate bad faith from the partner of the treaty to declare it void, as bad faith is a fundamental assumption in International law as reflected in several of the articles of the Vienna Convention on the law of treaties.

The Attorney General was trying to put across that “bad faith” is very difficult to prove. Well, heaven forbid the EU dared to pull the same fast one England has been pulling on Scotland for 300 years on the back of a silly treaty and a few silly conditions. As Howe said, “a thief thinks everybody steals”. England MPs clearly know all about how to disguise bad faith as good faith because they have been doing it for 300 years by deliberately misinterpreting the treaty of union 1707 and its conditions to continuously abuse Scotland, trash its heritage and culture and ransack its assets, haven’t they? I mean, the imposition of the Malt Tax in 1713 was already, 6 years in, a breach of the conditions.

There is no wonder that during this discussion in 2019 they were terrified of the EU, much bigger in size than the UK, using bad faith to twist the treaty because they knew very well the consequences of such an action as England’s representatives had been doing it to Scotland for centuries.

But incidentally, when somebody challenged the Attorney General on that point he also said this:

“It is extremely important to remember that there is always a right to terminate a treaty unilaterally if circumstances fundamentally change. There is no question but that we have a right to exit if those circumstances apply.”

So there you have it. The Uk Attorney General in 2019 speaking to UK Parliament and telling us all that a treaty can always be terminated either by proving bad faith or by demonstrating a change in circumstances. I am sure the UK Attorney General knew what he was talking about when addressing HM Parliament and said that, don’t you agree?

I have no reason to question his word. Do you?

This was March 2019. At that point, the circumstances of the UK union had fundamentally changed. In fact, the circumstances had changed continuously in 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019 with the successive assaults on our democratic rights, our constitution, the Scotland Act, even the Sewel convention. If Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP were really pursuing independence instead of taking the yes voters for a ride of fools and using our votes to preserve the union, they would have initiated right there and then, the dissolution of the treaty on the basis of material change in circumstances. And they should have done so, because also in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties there is this jewel:

“Article 45

“Loss of a right to invoke a ground for invalidating, terminating, withdrawing from or suspending the operation of a treaty”

A State may no longer invoke a ground for invalidating, terminating, withdrawing from or
suspending the operation of a treaty under articles 46 to 50 or articles 60 and 62 if, after becoming aware
of the facts:

(a) it shall have expressly agreed that the treaty is valid or remains in force or continues in operation,
as the case may be; or

(b) it must by reason of its conduct be considered as having acquiesced in the validity of the treaty or
in its maintenance in force or in operation, as the case may be”

In other words: use it or lose it.

I am sure you will agree with me that it would be absolutely unforgivable and nothing short of betrayal and gross dereliction of duty, if the deliberate and calculated lack of action from Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP to declare the Treaty of Union void in the face of the many breaches of the treaty of union and the many changes in circumstances unacceptable to us, we might have lost the opportunity to terminate this treaty under articles 46 to 50 and articles 60 to 62.

Has that opportunity passed us by because of her stubbornness, or perhaps because her political allegiances might lie at the opposite side where she claims she sits? Have her lack of action made it now too late for Scotland to use any of the doors the Vienna Convention on the Law of treaties offers for Scotland to exit this union, because her lack of action might be interpreted as “acquiescence of Scotland to the validity of the treaty” ? Such thing would be akin at her forcing on us an unlawful treaty. In other words, we would not be in this union because England is forcing us to. We would be in this union because Nicola Sturgeon has been denying us access to the mechanisms at our disposal to legitimately terminate a Treaty that has become toxic for Scotland. Would you agree with me on this point?

MORE TOMORROW AS MIA WARMS TO HER TASK.

BEAT THE CENSORS

Sadly some sites had given up on being pro Indy sites and have decided to become merely pro SNP sites where any criticism of the Party Leader or opposition to the latest policy extremes, results in censorship being applied. This, in the rather over optimistic belief that this will suppress public discussion on such topics. My regular readers have expertly worked out that by regularly sharing articles on this site defeats that censorship and makes it all rather pointless. I really do appreciate such support and free speech in Scotland is remaining unaffected by their juvenile censorship. Indeed it is has become a symptom of weakness and guilt. Quite encouraging really.

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75 thoughts on “THE RESPONSE WAS MASTERFUL

  1. Excellent – thanks so much for this Mia

    I remember a couple of years ago someone uncovered that the UK was registered with the UN as two countries, a principality and a province. The UN upgraded Wales to a country due to the lack of an executive prince – Wales rejoiced. I remember this and I used to be able to find it on google. Oddly it cannot be found now.

    Liked by 7 people

  2. Mia is on fire. If only we had any MPs, MSPs, or journalists who had a fraction of the understanding and knowledge Mia demonstrates daily. The SNP must really hate her, lol. All of those carefully constructed bromides, evasions, diversions and damage they do to the independence cause – then Mia comes along and demolishes them forensically and decisively. Wake up Holyrood, you have nothing to lose except your huge salaries, pensions and expenses!

    Liked by 18 people

    1. Mia makes the critical point – use it or lose it. Sturgeon is destroying us. We have to bring down the nuSNP before they render us a county of England – if only they would lift their snouts from the trough long enough to see it!

      Liked by 15 people

      1. “render us a county of England”, well GB News already congratulated “England’s curling team” on winning an Olympic, gold medal.
        It’s instructive to revisit the 1930’s and the political campaign group, English Mistery (sic). This was no powerless, fringe outfit. Its members included Sir Reginald Dorman-Smith, Cabinet Minister (Agriculture) in Chamberlain’s administration.
        English Mistery’s platform was as follows:
        * Abolition of democracy
        * Absolute power to reside with the aristocracy
        * Those in the population of suitably pure Anglo-Saxon stock to be reduced to serf status
        * Those of insufficiency pure Anglo-Saxon stock (rebellious Celts for example) to be “brutalised and exterminated” by the Anglo-Saxon serfs to reinstate their “warrior spirit”

        I don’t believe in hundred year cycles, but the forces of extreme right, English nationalism are gathering their resources as demonstrated by the advent of GB News.

        Liked by 9 people

  3. The Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties was signed on 23 May 1969 and came into force on 27 January 1980. The Claim of Right predates it by quite a wide margin so it’s useful for framing the situation in Scotland but I don’t think it can supercede it or render it invalid.

    The only question is whether the SNP, as a party, is willing to go down this path. We know the leadership will not. Sturgeon is too ingratiated with the self-styled great and the good in organisations like the Trilateral Commission whose membership also includes Kier Starmer. She covets that post at the UN so she will never do anything that prejudices her seat at the Global Trough. You can be sure her underlings also want to follow in her footsteps with plum jobs at NATO and the like.

    So what now?

    Liked by 14 people

      1. Or we don’t focus on voting them out because if we can unite sufficiently to reconvene the ”The said communities (of Scotland) assembled in a full and free representation of this nation …… as their ancestors in like cases have usually done for the vindicating and asserting of their rights and liberties…” (Claim of Right), they will have to answer for the rights they have already violated to the new Convention. And I assume that thereafter, there will be a new election for a new parliament under new conditions. It will be interesting to see how the modern ‘parcel of rogues’ contorts itself in the effort to stay in with the corporate hegemony while appearing to stand with and for the rights of the people of Scotland.

        Liked by 1 person

    1. In a democracy, Stuart, the people themselves, in the absence of proper representation from the politicians, have a right to bring a case on their own behalf. The problem with the UN is that it is a conclave of nation states. However, a group of people, representing themselves and others – a petition might be a good idea – could bring the Treaty and the Claim of Right to the Scottish courts to have them recognised and to establish that another legal action is possible. It would involve crowd-funding, but it could be done. In the absolute refusal of the SNP leadership to do anything about independence (she is dangling carrots again and has absolutely no intention of doing anything realistic about independence) that might be enough for those Scots who want to resile the Treaty to be heard at the UN. In any case, Westminster will react if the Treaty and Claim of Right become the subject of a court case in Scots Law – and that is what we want.

      Like

  4. Most interesting article.I have no legal training but immediately query if the argument is so valid and watertight why didn’t Alex Salmond ,the consummate politician, choose this route.Genuine question bc I’m sure you’ll have a direct line to him

    Liked by 3 people

      1. The Referendum was a gamble as the majority could vote either Yes or No.
        If the argument is valid and watertight, why did Salmon not go for the safe option?
        Can’t be just because he enjoys a flutter!

        Like

      2. Not very convincing answer Iain. If you believe in the absolute sovereignty of the Scottish ppl and the Claim of Rights no request for a referendum was ever required.
        With such a landslide in 2011 it was surely the perfect time to exercise our Claim of right I cannot believe AS was naive enough to believe a domineering English parliament would not play dirty and have everyman and his dog lined up against us including the Queen and probably voter fraud too.
        Or perhaps he set Scotland on the referendum path because he didnt want to spend years in court establishing the validity of Mias blog

        Like

      3. I regularly shake my head at what you write Florence. Alex Salmond promised a referendum. He delivered one, it was never stopped or challenged. There was no mention of “now is not the time”. Yet you still seek to blame him for Nicola’s humiliating record of failure. We all know where the real fault lies. Alex handed her great opportunity. She has been and still is spurning it.

        Like

  5. “Scotland’s representatives, in both the house of commons and the house of lords, did not appear to believe your version that Scotland had surrendered its sovereignty in perpetuity, hence it could no longer dissolve the treaty and end the union. At that time, they brought a bill to parliament to end the treaty of union and they lost by just a handful of votes.”

    So they accepted they needed a majority in the *Parliament of Great Britain* to repeal the *Acts* of Union (NB no “Treaty” was ever signed).

    How does that help your case?

    Like

    1. Sparks,

      I invite you to continue reading beyond the vote in parliament in whatever article you found. Why? Because England MPs may have passed the Malt Tax, the monarch may had given royal assent to the breach of article 14 of the treaty and the Scottish MPs/lords might have failed in their motion at ending the union, but by heck the huge opposition and non-compliance that followed sent England Mps and the monarch with the tail between their legs to ditch the idea of imposing the tax on Scotland.

      What does this tell me? That in 1713 the people of Scotland did not believe the UK of Great Britain had parliamentary sovereignty, nor the monarch had the last word. If you were looking for a display of popular sovereignty, this is one.

      The whole think works very nicely for me to prove my point because:

      1. The Treaty was never seen by MPs/Lords or the Scottish people contemporary to the treaty as the permanent, irrevocable thing we are led to believe today it is

      2. The huge opposition and non-compliance in Scotland to the imposition of the tax suggests the “Westminster’s sovereignty” is a recent thing. This is corroborated by other two things. First that the Scottish MPs and Lords actually went to the monarch and asked them to end the union before the vote took place, suggesting they thought Scotland was above the new parliament and it was not up to it to end the union. Secondly, the vote to end the union took place among the lords, again, putting into question the theory of Parliamentary sovereignty.

      3. The Scottish MPs/Lords were acting as a block and considered their legitimate right to go to the monarch and unilaterally call for the end of the union. This was 6 years after the treaty was completed, questioning the idea of an “incorporating union” where both countries England and Scotland had lost their separate identities.

      4. The fact that those Scottish MPs and Lords in 1713 went to the monarch to ask them to end the union tells me they thought Scotland was above the UK of Great Britain parliament. What this also tells me is that the idea that England MPs own more sovereignty of Scotland than Scotland itself is also trash

      5. That the vote in parliament passing the tax meant very little because neither Westminster nor the monarch were seen as sovereign in 1713 by the Scottish people or the Scottish MPs and Lords, so the tax was not implemented

      6.The only reason why the attempt to end the union failed in 1713 is because there was not a clear exit route, ie, a separate parliament where they could repeal the Act of Union with England to unilaterally end the union. Given that circumstances, the only route they would have at that time if England wanted to keep the union was to depose the monarch and end the union of crowns with a new Claim of Right. I guess that would have been seen as too dangerous for them.

      7. What this tells me is that the right route to end the union is through the MPs with a plebiscitary election, not through a referendum.

      I leave you with this from a debate in the House of Commons in 1834 in the context of Ireland seeking the dissolution of the union with Ireland (HC Deb 23 April 1834 vol 22 cc1164-284):

      “I think Irish Gentlemen would do well to consider and to adopt the reasoning of Lord Peterborough in 1713:—’Though England, who, in this national marriage, must be supposed to be the husband, might, in some instances, have been unkind to the lady, yet she ought not presently to sue for a divorce, the rather because she had very much mended her fortune by the match.”

      In 1713 they liked the union between Scotland and England as a “marriage” and they saw divorce as a possibility. Therefore the idea of an “incorporating union” where Scotland and England disappeared and lost their separate identities, is simply not credible.

      Here is another nice bit in the debate:

      “A Motion was made by the Earl of Finlater in 1713, for leave to bring in a Bill to dissolve the Union. A complaint was made that the Union had been violated by the imposition of increased taxation in Scotland. This was a stronger case, the House will observe, than any advanced on the part of Ireland, for I have not heard it, as yet, stated, that the enactments of the Union have been violated by Parliament.

      We hear it suggested, it is true, that the Union was, in its terms, unjust to Ireland, and that the Irish Parliament made a bad bargain. But what was said by the Scotch Peers in 1713? Not only that the terms were unjust, but that those terms had been violated.

      The Duke of Argyll said, “If the Union were not dissolved, he did not expect to have either property left in Scotland, or liberty in England.”

      Other Scottish Lords said, that the end of the Union was the cultivation of “amity between the two nations, but that it was so far from having that effect, that they were sure the animosity between the two nations was much greater now than before the Union.” The Scottish Lords further stated, that “if the Union were not dissolved, their country would be the most miserable under heaven.”

      Interesting points here (remember we are talking of 1834, that is over 100 years after the treaty of Union):
      1. The Scottish representatives were serious about dissolving the union and this remained in the memories of England MPs for 100 years. I am sure it still remains today

      2. The Scottish representatives denounced vociferously the violation of the treaty – no like the amoebas in the SNP

      3. The violation of the treaty was recognised by England MPs as a valid reason to call the end of the union

      4. In 1834 they constantly talk about two nations. In the last sentence it is clear the Scottish Lords were still talking about “their country (Scotland)”. This questions the concept of an incorporating union. Neither the Lords or the MPs in 1713 nor those in the debate above in 1837 saw the union as an incorporating union where England and Scotland had disappeared.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. “7. What this tells me is that the right route to end the union is through the MPs with a plebiscitary election, not through a referendum.”

        I’m curious as to your reasoning behind that statement.

        I happen to agree it is the most viable route, but largely as I have no faith in the current incarnation of the SNP delivering a referendum in the near (say 5 years) term, or it having a suitable franchise.

        But that is a gut feel. So what is your reasoned argument for why a PE is the ‘right’ approach, rather than just the likely, pragmatic one?

        Ta.

        Like

      2. @JB

        You ask “So what is your reasoned argument for why a PE is the ‘right’ approach, rather than just the likely, pragmatic one?”

        My answer:

        1. We have lost time that we will never get back and we have had irreversible damage to trust

        For the last 8 years, Sturgeon and her version of the SNP have taken us for a ride of fools during which we have seen Scotland change for the worse. She has lost us EU membership, she has lost us what could easily become the biggest market for our exports and several of Scotland’s biggest assets. We have seen how our laws and policies are changed to make it more difficult for Scotland to go back to the EU and easier to decrease our standards and to maintain Scotland as a consumer in a political union where Scotland is seen just as an extension of England’s own domestic market. The more we wait, the more difficult to exit this situation will be, and the less poor we will become if this woman continues handing our assets in this fashion. Time is of the essence.

        I would have accept this delay if in the last 8 years I had seen any improvement in Scotland’s infrastructure and preparation for independence. But this did not happen. All I see is 8 wasted years and a lot lost. Realistically, I don’t think any yes supporter will suffer gladly being told that we have to wait even more.

        2. Honesty

        Because Sturgeon and her version of the SNP have been so dishonest, a straightforward plebiscitary election where you are voting for candidates on a manifesto to terminate the treaty of union without conditions is, in my opinion, the only honest avenue after 8 years wasted. I think it is required to restore trust. Today, voting for another mandate for a referendum will be seen as a bad joke.

        3. Straightforward

        No long manifestos are needed. Nor long worded manifestos that promise the moon but deliver nothing. The manifesto just needs a line: “a vote for us is a mandate to exit the treaty of union”. Decision is easy: you are not prepared to include in your manifesto the end of the union? then no vote.
        If you want independence and you don’t want to give more careerists are not voting to give careerists sinecures and fat salaries and pensions. We are voting them in to end the union.

        4. No justification needed
        We are constantly having to justify why we want a referendum and constantly pushed back and vetoed by having to constantly ask for mandates only to watch them being left to expire. A plebiscitary election overrides all that and the voter becomes who controls the narrative. On a plebiscite election it is not Westminster or Sturgeon who defines the scope of your vote. They do not tell you what you vote for. You choose what you vote for. No justifications to Sturgeon, to the gender woowoos, to the England parties in Scotland or to Westminster are needed, just to yourself.

        5. Known outcome
        In a plebiscitary election where the MPs are standing on a mandate to withdraw Scotland from the Treaty of Union there is no doubt as to what the outcome is going to be if there is a majority. There is no doubt what you are mandating those MPs to do and what you expect them to do. There is no room for “let’s wait and see”, or “now is not the time”.or “gold standards” that turn out to be gold standards for Westminster, or “a vote for us is not a vote for independence on this election” or waffle.

        5. Control of the timeframe
        In a plebiscitary election Scotland and not Westminster controls the timeline, the narrative and the procedure. The MPs do not take their seats, so independence can happen much faster.

        6. No risk of Devo Max option being sneaked in the ballots to divide the yes vote and “save the union”.

        7. Divide and conquer – less opportunity for the UK state to interfere
        England political parties and the UK propaganda apparatus will have to divide their attention between gaining seats/party debates and campaigning against independence. Having to divide their attention may take focus from independence resulting in less interference.

        8. Less opportunities to use civil servants to “save the union”.

        Until 8th May 2015 Scotland had in front of her 2 clear routes to independence:

        1. Ending the treaty of union and dissolving the UK of Great Britain Parliament – this would revert Scotland’s status to is former Kingdom of Scotland state. This gives the advantage to Scotland that it is Scotland who is in control. The obvious route for this was the claim of change of circumstances.

        2. Seek to secede from the “UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”. This option gives all control to Westminster and leaves us at its mercy and begging its “permission” to exit the united kingdom of Great Britain and begging for a fair share of assets. The advantage is that the Uk state may help to set up infrastructure.

        What could be the practical difference?

        Under option 1 the UN, Nato seats, embassies, military equipment etc, etc, etc are all shared assets that are up for negotiation between Scotland and England. Because this is a union of equals resulting from a treaty, both England and Scotland have the same right to become the UK successor state if they so wish. They can divide the embassies, secret services, military equipment, infrastructure, etc, etc, etc. The disadvantage is that is that if the MPs do not take the seats it can be very quick and we have to have everything prepared to act as an independent country from day one. Another disadvantage is that we may have to take on a share of the UK debt.

        Under option 2, it stands to the obvious that if Scotland secedes, from the UK England + Wales + NI become automatically the successor state and keep therefore all shared assets and possibly the debt. Scotland will be given a pittance and left in a much worse bargaining position. Westminster would be totally in control of the time frame, delaying it enough to help itself to whatever Scotland has left of value. The advantage is that we may get some help, but possibly with the condition that our structures and forms of government, policies etc, etc are developed to mirror the UK ones no hard border between England and Scotland , meaning not coming back to the EU and not increasing our standards, and meaning our market remains as an extension of England’s. In other ones, we will end up with a mini-UK.

        Either Sturgeon is pushing us away from independence or she is trying very hard to close all the doors of option 1 and is forcing us to take route 2, hence her continuous undermining of Scotland, her embracing of the Englsih convention of Westminster parliamentary sovereignty and her “generosity” giving away our assets instead of protecting them for Scotland to benefit after independence.

        A plebiscite election would force them to keep option 1 open.

        Liked by 1 person

  6. “Convention of the Estates” as an expression of “popular sovereignty”?

    Er, no.

    Same men as were in the Parliament.

    What were the “Estates” again?

    Nobility – hereditary.
    Clergy – appointed (usually from noble families).
    Burgh Commissioners – appointed or elected by a small number of men with property. (And in 1689, they had to be Protestant.)

    People might care to read up on the history of all this from an authoritative and neutral source.

    https://www.rps.ac.uk/static/historicalintro.html

    “An unusual feature of the meetings of the estates, especially in the sixteenth century, was the convention of estates that could be summoned by the king without the long period of forty days’ notice required for a full parliament and usually only to agree taxations. “

    Liked by 1 person

      1. Iain, Sparky’s reply is actually quite accurate and adds to an interesting debate. Just because it doesn’t accord with your views shouldn’t really call for it to be dismissed. If you don’t agree with him, say why. I myself have always contended that in 16th century Scotland, real power was held by the upper classes and Parliament at that time was little more than rubber stamp for the Crown. Scotlasnd was not unique in that – it was the same almost everywhere else in Europe.

        Like

      2. It was not dismissed. You only read it because I published it. That is not being dismissed. It is a bit rich to be lectured that I should not disagree with someone on my own blog. Also, with respect to dismiss anything from the 17th century because of a lack of universal suffrage lays you open to bias. If you dismiss the 1689 Claim of Right but live every day with the effects of the 1707 Treaty of Union. There was no universal suffrage then either,

        Liked by 9 people

      3. daveytee19 Your knowledge of 16th century Scotland is based on histories – almost all the available histories – that are shameful in their ignorance of Scottish society at that time. In 16th century Scotland the clan system held sway over most of Scotland which had 40% of the population level of England at that same period, most in the Gaeltacht. The feudal class system had little place there, though that changed drastically over time. And they were not running around the heather in great kilts and living in black houses as you’d imagine from the romantic ‘recreating’ we get in tosh like Braveheart. They were going to school and university, trading and crafting and writing music and poetry that we have been bereft of.

        In Scotland, everywhere from the islands to Peebles, the sons of the workers – and I mean workers – could attend one of the grammar schools that existed in every burgh and town in Scotland, aided by bursaries for those who needed shoes, coats or books. (Carefully and meticulously recorded by the Victorian James Grant from the records of all those schools.) Literacy in England at that time was confined to the sons of the nobility and the wealthy merchant classes. A 16th century school master in the wee town of Burntisland was sacked for only teaching reading and writing (grammar and syntax included) and mathematics. Apparently, he should at least have been offering Greek and Latin as well apparently, as every other grammar school master did. Education and servility do not mix as the apartheid government in South Africa well knew when it banned the secondary schooling of black South Africans.

        The Burghs each had an assembly which fed into the central ‘Burgh Convention’ and which had direct access to the Privy Council, the Convention, the Parliament and the committees. It forced through much legislation “for the common good” and held off the incursions of lairds who wanted to profit from the taxes levied on the business of the town when this money was intended for such things as schools and religious and medicine. And the Burgh Convention, by the way, lasted until 1906 when it was abolished by Westminster.

        Scotland in the 16th century was not like England. Those who write history see it through the lens of their own culture, a problem which the anthropological community did not address until comparatively recently. In other words, you see what you are used to and understand it in terms of your own world and its workings. Scotland was not perfect and still isn’t but, I repeat, it was not England. Not then and not now.

        Liked by 1 person

  7. Mia, I’m afraid that the Vienna Convention does not apply to older treaties and ours is classed by the UN as an older treaty. We could, however, apply to one of the special tribunals that are set up specifically to deal with anomalies.

    We did, unfortunately give away our national sovereignty (as opposed to the people’s sovereignty which was part of our constitutional law and, to my knowledge, has never been disposed of). The British parliament could not have operated otherwise: it required the sovereignty of both nations – Scotland and England – to operate. Sovereignty is the authority bequeathed to a parliament so that it might operate on behalf of the state and the people, elect representatives, and so on, and, since the British parliament was a new one, it had to derive its authority from the two former parliaments through the Treaty which sets it up. It is not really a question of whether we gave away our sovereignty in 1707 but whether we gave it all away or some of it. We could not have loaned it to the British parliament because the Treaty specifically states that the two parliaments will cease to exist as they had done and their authority would pass to the new British parliament.

    It isn’t enough just to read the Treaty either: all the workings around the Treaty, the speeches made at the time, letters sent and received by the monarch, etc., must also be looked at to try and work out what was intended. I promise you I am not having a go, Mia, but, if we don’t do this properly, we could lose big time. My personal opinion, for what it’s worth – and you may all ditch it if you like; I’m past caring what anyone thinks of me – is that our route to independence, if we are going via the Treaty, must be on the breaching of the signed document, the ultra vires actions of the British government and the argument that we might not have actually given away all of our nation’s sovereignty.

    My own readings around the Treaty would suggest that even Queen Anne was of the mind that it was a Union of two nations and that neither was the superior of the other. Remember, the two crowns did not merge into one – and they are still separate today – albeit it was called the Union of the Crowns. What happened in reality was that the authority residing in both the English and Scottish crowns passed to one monarch instead of two, in 1603. The Scottish Crown Jewels have never been incorporated into the English ones because the monarch is still, separately, Queen of Scotland and Queen of England. The Treaty itself and the all the workings around the Treaty suggest, very powerfully, that a Union of two equal nations was carried out and that Scotland’s national sovereignty, at least some of it, was to remain, if only in abeyance. From her own mouth, Queen Anne, appeared to be very aware that there were two nations here, not one subsuming the other.

    The Scottish jurists who drew up the Scottish Treaty were evidently mistrustful of the English MPs and Lords – as they were right to be – and they insisted in the Treaty that, basically, all the trappings of an independent Scotland were to be kept: legal system, church, education system, etc. Again, this is very suggestive of there being two separate nations in the UK of GB from day one, and it was the underhand tactics of the English MPs, well-documented in Hansard, that first started the ball rolling towards the English perception that we were subsumed. Sidelining the Court of Session, Scotland’s Highest Court, very soon after 1707, and making the HoL, stuffed with English peers, clergy and lords, the court of final appeal was such a grave breach of the Treaty that that alone should have led to its repudiation We have acquiesced in every rotten thing that has been done to us, and that is the truth of it. When it was the Unionists in power, that was to be expected, but we see every day how the SNP does the same. Unless we actually take matters forward, we are going nowhere. All this should make us scream in rage, but we act like beaten dogs, cowering and whimpering.

    Liked by 9 people

    1. Your assertion that:

      “The Scottish Crown Jewels have never been incorporated into the English ones because the monarch is still, separately, Queen of Scotland and Queen of England. ”

      seems to be rather contradicted by:

      https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1707/7/section/I

      “I
      That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain ”

      Would you not agree?

      Like

      1. Sparks: nope, I wouldn’t. United in that sense is exactly the same as united in the sense of the Union of the Crowns of 1603. Again, the two parliaments would come under one new parliament ruled over by one monarch. Any successor to the throne will require to be crowned in Scotland as well as in England, even if the ceremony is much reduced. Or, of course, we could declare ourselves a republic. Scotland, the nation still exists, as does the Scottish royal line, both now incorporated in Westminster, the Lords and the constitutional monarchy. You really do need to read the Treaty and Queen Anne’s speeches and writings of the time, where she speaks of her “two kingdoms” of Scotland and England becoming ‘united’ and embodied in one parliament and one persona as the UK of GB. “The United Kingdom” means the uniting of the two kingdoms, not that the Scottish crown would become subsumed by the English/British crown. You make the same mistake as those who believe that Scotland, the state and nation, was subsumed. Neither was subsumed, but the state of Scotland was incorporated into the UK of GB as was England, the state, whose nation also survives. It was not. Crawford and Boyle made the cardinal error of believing that was the case and used that as their premise for their Report of 2013 for David Cameron. With that premise, the only conclusion could have been Scottish subsumption. It was a jurisprudential twisting of the Descartes statement, I think, therefore I am to, I am, therefore I am. It was, and is, totally erroneous, and a little effort on the part of a first-rate constitutional lawyer for Scotland would soon put that nonsense to bed forever. The piper calls the tune, and it was no different in the Cameron-Crawford/Boyle Report affair.

        Liked by 8 people

    2. “the Vienna Convention does not apply to older treaties”

      Article 4 (“Non-retroactivity of the present Convention”) says:
      “Without prejudice to the application of any rules set forth in the present Convention to which treaties would be subject under international law independently of the Convention, the Convention applies only to treaties which
      are concluded by States after the entry into force of the present Convention with regard to such states”

      My interpretation of Article 4 of the Vienna Convention is that it cannot be used retrospectively to substitute the standards of international law at the time those treaties were signed with the new ones. This means you would not be able to use the Vienna Convention for insults towards active treaties that happened before the Convention was accepted. For example, you would not be able to use the Vienna Convention to denounce the coercion used in 1705 to force Scotland into the treaty with the Alien Act or the bribing of Members of the Scottish Parliament in 1706 to force Scotland to enter the Union if those actions were not been seen as unlawful at the time the treaty was signed.

      But article 4 clearly states that this does not mean that you cannot apply to previous treaties rules included in the Viena convention to which the treaties would have been subjected to under common international law any way. The immediate interpretation from this is that you should be able to apply the convention to highlight those assaults on old, but nonetheless active treaties, that happen after the convention was signed.

      The principles of “Ex consensu advenit vinculum” (principle of free consent to enter the treaty), “pacta sunt servanda” (all agreements must be respected), “Rebus sic stantibus” (unenforceability of a treaty due to fundamentally changed circumstances), “Res inter alios acta” (a contract cannot adversely affect the rights of one who is not a party) and “Bona fide” (acting in good faith), are universally recognized as being fundamental part of International law independently or not if they are also included in the Vienna Convention. The principle of non-retroactivity of treaties is also customary rule in international law before establishing the Vienna Convention.

      The breaches of the conditions of the treaty of union and the Claim of Right would fall within “pacta sunt servanda”. because those conditions are part of the agreement. You breach the conditions, you breach the agreement.
      ,
      The material changes in circumstances resulting from forcing Brexit on Scotland, for example, or even the fact that the union between England and Scotland was a mechanism to stop Scotland aligning with France to attack England in the 18th century, are no longer relevant in the present historic context, so in my opinion would fall within “Rebus sic stantibus”.

      The deliberate misinterpretation of the treaty of union as a way to continue exploiting Scotland and take control of its resources for example, would fall within the breach of the concept of “good faith”.

      Those principles are acknowledged in the articles of the Vienna Convention, but they were also part of international law before the convention was established, hence applicable to the Treaty of Union.

      Furthermore, there is the matter of consistency, which in the international scenario is not insignificant. If an state becomes a signatory of the Vienna Convention, as the UK did in April 1970, and embraces the convention in its body of law, as the UK appears to have been quite enthusiastically doing judging by the debates in Westminster regarding the Withdrawal agreement and the NI Protocol, then it cannot simply apply the huge inconsistency that would be demanding its treaty partners to fully abide by the Viena Convention for some treaties and then itself discharge all its responsibilities under the convention for others. This would leave the state with no credibility at all as a reliable partner. So there may not be a theoretical obligation to follow the convention on the aspects not included in general international law before, but certainly there is a practical one.

      We are often told that the Treaty of Union is an old document and the conditions included in its articles obsolete. To see the relevance of the conditions of the Treaty of union we could look at the Treaty of Utrecht signed by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Spain in 1713. There is only a difference of 6 years, so we can assume that the elements of international law that applied at the time to the Treaty of Union, are the same that apply to the Treaty of Utrecht 1713. Well, I would like to see the Uk daring to tell the Spaniards that the conditions in the Treaty of Utrecht are obsolete. There is currently a long term ongoing dispute regarding the territorial waters surrounding Gibraltar and which refers to Article X of that Treaty. I have just read a paper on this from 2015, and the union minions may have had somewhat success telling the people of Scotland the conditions stipulated in the treaty of union 1707 are now obsolete, but the Spaniards certainly do not see article X of the Treaty of Utrecht as obsolete and dead, never mind recent changes in international law regarding territorial waters since the treaty was written. They see that article as very much alive and kicking.

      Where the Uk cannot escape the Vienna Convention is with the Withdrawal agreement signed to exit the EU. It includes the English convention of “Westminster sovereignty” in clause 38, which violates a domestic principle of fundamental importance, which is Scotland’s popular sovereignty as acknowledge in the Scotland’s constitution and this, in my view, could invoke Article 46 of the Vienna convention.

      As per the sovereignty matter, we have to agree to disagree. In my view if Scotland had irreversibly surrendered its sovereignty as a state in 1706, it would have not included any conditions that could be broken in the future in the treaty. There had to be some entity watching or intending to watch that that those conditions would be met, and being in a position to terminate the treaty if the conditions were breached, otherwise what was the point in including them? Somehow I do not think the Scottish people in 1707 would trust the judgement of England MPs and lords nor would leave to them the task of bringing the union to an end if England MPs breached the conditions.

      What I most certainly agree with you, Lorna is that the way out of this is going for the jugular on all the breaches of the conditions of the Treaty and the Claim of Right since 2016. But I wouldn’t forget all the other things though. Because when all of them are put together they help nicely to paint the picture on the ongoing and evident bad faith behind this union.

      I would not discard either the infamous resurrection of the “Henry VIII powers”, which predated the completion of the treaty and did not apply to Scotland. This would fall nicely under the violation of the non-retrospectivity of treaties which would give support to both, the picture of bad faith behind the union, but also that of England never had had any intention to respect the agreement. This is because under the right light such move to resurrect those powers could be seen to invalidate the main principle of the treaty itself which is the creation of a brand new parliament, the parliament of the UK of Great Britain. Bringing Henry VIII powers suggests Westminster never was the new parliament the treaty said would be created in 1707, but England’s parliament disguised as the Union’s parliament.

      Needless to say that the breaches of the articles, like the Malt tax, starting as early as 1713 if not even sooner, help to support as well the above portraying a picture where England’s representatives demonstrably never had any intention of respecting the agreement.

      Liked by 8 people

      1. Sorry Lorncal, I forgot to mention something else with regards to the Withdrawal Bill, to which the Vienna Convention applies in full.

        Considering that at the time this bill was passed Scotland had sent a majority of SNP Mps to Westminster, it had not given consent for brexit and an independence referendum was on the table since 2016, the question if Westminster had in fact the democratic authority and competency to enter this bill on behalf of Scotland without its consent , in my view, remains unanswered.

        We know that through clause 38 this withdrawal bill is actually the first time the English convention of “Westminster sovereignty” has been sneaked into UK law by the back door. I thought at the time this was probably Johnson’s manoeuvre to delay independence and to making us look insignificant.

        But I now wonder if this piece of English convention was sneaked in UK law as yet another safeguard for England with regards to trade deals. The illusion of Westminster sovereignty may give trade partners more confidence when entering treaties with a UK whose constitutional future is hanging by a thread. This clause would also make those negotiating the treaties and trade deals on behalf of the UK state look like they had the authority to bargain with Scotland’s assets despite Scotland never consenting to it and having the potential to become a separate state.

        Could be Sturgeon’s imposition of S30, the assurances that we will never get one (as we already know), and the one million excuses we have heard from Sturgeons since 2016 to delay independence are just a decoy to keep us busy looking the other way while with those tools they avoid Article 18 of the Vienna Convention which would apply if a referendum/plebiscite had been called at any time from 2016 and Scotland voted for independence?

        And where do all these deals we were forced to be part of leave us if Scotland votes for independence? Are we still going to be bound by those agreements we were not party of and we did not consent to? Articles 35, 37, 38?

        Liked by 3 people

      2. Then we shall have to agree to disagree, Mia. I gave a very full comment but it has disappeared into the ether again, including acquiescence being taken for agreement. also, If the Convention doesn’t cover the Treaty, it cannot cover any part of the Treaty. That is precisely why it must be ‘sound’ in law. If it is deemed in law to still be extant – and I believe it is – then we have to establish how to use it to best advantage. The point which no one has mentioned is that it is the founding document of the UK of GB. If it is not longer extant, then the Union must fall – which is precisely why those lawyers in the Lords wanted it to be renegotiated as an Act and why David Cameron needed that back-up from Crawford and Boyle that we had been subsumed, in case we voted YES in 2014.

        Liked by 1 person

  8. Devastating demonstration of research and logic.
    What’s the collective effort of the SNPs small army of salaried researchers amount to?
    1001 reasons not to affect beneficial, material, change.
    “Pete Wishart syndrome” as institutional dogma.

    Liked by 10 people

  9. I have read the claim of right articles by mia but unfortunatly i cannot really grasp what is being said. It is too wordy for me with referances to things i dont really know what they are or the relavance they have today. For example an estate to me is an housing scheme or something a laird has. Can someone condense this all down to a few paragraghs explaining the signifiganse in a way i can explain to the guys at the pub.

    Like

  10. Iain

    I am afraid that Mia’s response is far from masterful, and I am certainly no Unionist. Let us look at the following points:

    1. The Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties has no application to the Treaty of Union which occurred hundreds of years before. And actually, it wouldn’t have mattered if Vienna had been enacted in 1707. The Treaty of Union is an incorporating treaty as Article I makes bone-crushingly clear. Neither Scotland nor England survived 1707 as independent sovereign countries. Instead, a new country, the United Kingdom, was formed.

    2. I quote Mia: “If you look in the treaty of union you will see that nowhere it says Scotland has to give up its parliament. Nor it says anywhere that it cannot open another one or one hundred if it so wishes, whenever it likes.”

    But Article III states :”That the United Kingdom of Great Britain [that new country created by Article I] [will] be represented by One and the same Parliament, to be stiled, the Parliament of Great Britain” The meaning is clear. If Scotland can create competing parliaments at its own whim then there is no incorporating union.

    3. I quote Mia again: “If the nobility in 1707 were giving away Scotland’s sovereignty on signing the treaty, they would have never bothered demanding the Claim of Right to be a fundamental condition of the Treaty, nor the keeping of Scotland’s crown, seal and a mint in Scotland, or a separate body of law for Scotland and another few things. They clearly had a very strong determination to keep Scotland’s nationhood and distinctiveness in perpetuity. That is not what a nation who is ready to surrender its sovereignty does.”

    Mia does not grasp the difference between an incorporating union and a straight “Kuwait is the 19th province of Iraq” type assimilation. The Commissioners for Union had to give away Scottish independent sovereignty yet they successfully negotiated to retain vital aspects of Scottish nationhood including the established Presbyterian Kirk and Whig settlement of 1689, Scots law, Scots court administration the historic Scots universities and much else. By the way she should note that Article XXIV provides for a new Union Great Seal.

    4. She then comes on to the attempt to dissolve the Union in 1713, and she states: “At that point, only 6 years after the treaty of union had been signed, Scotland’s representatives, in both the house of commons and the house of lords, did not appear to believe your version that Scotland had surrendered its sovereignty in perpetuity, hence it could no longer dissolve the treaty and end the union. At that time, they brought a bill to parliament to end the treaty of union and they lost by just a handful of votes.”

    Article I makes clear that the Union continues in “all time coming” unless the Union Parliament itself terminates it and it must have such a power, as there are no legislative impediments on what the Union Parliament can do. The Scottish nationalists of their day thus took the correct constitutional route to ending the Union: Use the Union Parliament itself, which is still open to us today! They did not bother trying to call bogus Scottish parliaments or Conventions of Estates. What happened in 1713 strongly undermines Mia’s case.

    5. We now come to the 2019 debates on the Withdrawal Bill. Bear in mind that the Vienna Treaty does clearly apply to the UK and the EU since the UK is an independent sovereign country and the EU is a ‘sovereign entity”. The bad faith reason for treaty termination clearly applies. Mia imagines that someone is arguing that “the Treaty of Union was irreversible because it does not have an exit clause” I do not know who is arguing this but with UK-wide sanction for the 2014 referendum it is clear that the UK contemplates that the Union is not irreversible. However, Union dissolution must be sanctioned by the Union!

    6. She quotes the Attorney-General as follows:”It is extremely important to remember that there is always a right to terminate a treaty unilaterally if circumstances fundamentally change. There is no question but that we have a right to exit if those circumstances apply.”

    What Mia is forgetting is that the AG is referring to a normal treaty between independent sovereign states. No country however, can resile from a treaty which has ended its existence, because it is dead!

    7. She finally concludes that Nicola has egregiously failed to utilise our alleged rights to end the Union and that her failure to do so may lead to a conclusion under the Vienna Convention that Scotland has waived important rights under the said Convention. As already shown, the Treaty of Union is not governed by Vienna. Additionally YES failed to win the 2014 referendum and Scotland has not won a plebiscitary election on independence.

    William Ross

    Liked by 1 person

    1. You say:
      The Treaty of Union is an incorporating treaty as Article I makes bone-crushingly clear. Neither Scotland nor England survived 1707 as independent sovereign countries. Instead, a new country, the United Kingdom, was formed.

      Article 1 is just one of the articles. It does not stand alone. Also it is far from clear that it is incorporating: the imperfect nature of the operation of union clearly demonstrates this, as does the way the UK is registered with the UN. Violent oppression reduces the validity of any claims the violations of the treaty were willingly accepted. The unspoken message that Scotlands democratic wishes will only be respected when we enforce them through violence is a contemptible position adopted by the current UKG and, sadly, the EU. The NI protocol is nothing more than a statement that killing is respected and democracy is not. I am disgusted.

      This is an older treaty but the Vienna convention is based on fairness and common sense. Applying those to the Treaty of Union will not go well for Westminster and we absolutely should challenge this in the international arena.

      Liked by 7 people

      1. Marion: no old treaty anywhere in the world is covered by the Vienna Convention. That is fact. There are special tribunals that can be set up to deal with a Treaty like ours, as far as I was able to discover, but the UN is not going to even glance askance at our Treaty unless, and until, it is ‘sound’ in law, starting with Scots Law. This would mean that judges would sit and declare whether it is extant or not and whether a case may be brought based on its ability to be judged upon in a court case. Without that, it can go no further.

        I’m afraid that I have to agree with William that both the Scottish parliament and the English parliament made themselves defunct and also passed their sovereignty (national) to the new British parliament, and this is where it gets really interesting from a Scottish perspective because the English parliament did exactly the same. It is here that any attempt to regain our independence on sound legal arguments requires to be made: everything that Scotland did, England did, too. I wrote an admittedly lengthy comment on this already, but it disappeared into the ether. Our Claim of Right would go hand-in-hand with an argument highlighting the two-sided nature of the Union and the English jurists’ and MPs’ complete misinterpretation (deliberate?) of the Treaty. There also remains the question, never answered: did Scotland pass its entire sovereignty to the British parliament (absolutely necessary legally and constitutionally for any parliament to have authority) or did we, and England, pass only half of our respective sovereignties?

        The fact, also, that the main arms of statehood, the legal system, the established church and the education system, survived and were guaranteed under the Treaty terms, is highly suggestive that Scotland the Nation survives today as does England the Nation and that neither was ever intended to have total control over the other. England has been acting ultra vires for the whole of the Union because the English parliament was not intended to be Westminster. Westminster was and remains the British parliament. The Treaty also makes that very clear. Queen Anne herself, in her speeches and writings around the Treaty and the Union upholds the “two kingdoms” and the “two nations”, and the Treaty is useless without taking into account what she said and did because it shows the full picture of what was intended. The law will always look at what was intended.

        William is also right that we failed to capitalise on the 2014 referendum, no matter the circumstances. Our greatest failure is in our acquiescence. Where I think William is very wrong is in the “for all time coming” because no modern democracy can rule on such a strict and onerous interpretation of a Treaty where only a handful of people had the vote. It is in the breaching of the Treaty that our best chance lies, once we have managed to establish that the Treaty is extant and may be adjudicated upon in a court case. The crucial point is: if it is not extant, then neither is the Union because it is the Union’s founding document. The two Treaties actually set up the UK of GB and, without it, it falls. The terms of the original Treaty Articles must also be “in all time coming”, so, if they have been breached, they have been breached unilaterally by England which had absolutely no right in law to do so because it is not n any way Scotland’s legal superior, according to the Treaty.

        We should also remember that the UK joined the EU and the UK withdrew again. William is right about that, but where his argument falls down is in the fact that Scotland should have been consulted, and its opinion taken into account, on both occasions – not as a small part of the UK (de facto, England, by dint of numbers) but as one of the equal partners to the 1707 Union. He keeps mistaking an incorporating Union for subsumption of Scotland. Where does it say that anywhere? He makes the identical mistake that the English jurists and MPs made post 1707 when they thought that England had subsumed Scotland. The Treaty says otherwise and it is time that they were made to see that and put their gas at a peep.

        Like

    2. Also William: elections are multi issue and provide mandates. Referendums are single issue and provide decisions on a single issue.

      Liked by 7 people

    3. At kast – a voice of reason. Like William, I’m afraid that I find Mia’s response far from masterful and in fact full of errors and assumptions. I want independence and am confident that we can achieve it, but we’re not going to do so by arguing the claim of right. We don’t have to – modern international law recognises the right of self-determination and also the right of unilateral secession should that be necesary – see the Kosova case, for example. Our main hurdle, however, appears to be the Scottish people, 50% of whom, for reasons which I find incomprehensible, still appear to reject independence.

      DT

      Like

      1. Perhaps a lack of teaching of our history and rights? We were taught about Magna Carta, Waterloo, even Alfred burning the cakes but very little or in many cases none of our own history. Why is that? If you want to challenge anything Mia wrote be brave enough to spell it out, highlight the “errors”. I will publish and will do so with her reply. Can’t be fairer than that.

        Liked by 9 people

    4. “The Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties has no application to the Treaty of Union which occurred hundreds of years before”

      If you read Article 4 of the Vienna Convention, it clearly states “Without prejudice to the application of any rules set forth in the present Convention to which treaties would be subject under international law independently of the Convention”
      In other words, you can apply the articles of the convention that represent fundamental elements of international law that would be applicable to the treaty before the convention.

      “But Article III states :”That the United Kingdom of Great Britain [that new country created by Article I] [will] be represented by One and the same Parliament, to be stiled, the Parliament of Great Britain”

      Sure. How many parliaments does the EU as a separate legal entity have? One.

      How is the EU parliament stiled? The European Parliament.

      Does the fact that the EU only has one parliament, that the parliament has a name that relates to the geographical enclave where it is, and that it is called differently from the main parliament of each its constituent parties, make it an incorporating union? No.

      Does the fact that the EU is a separate legal entity, has a new parliament and that parliament has a different name to the ones from the constituent parties imply none of the constituent parties had to give up their parliaments? No.

      where is the word incorporating in that article? Where is it stated that Scotland cannot have its own parliament?
      Where is it stated in that Treaty that Scotland has to give up its own parliament?

      “The meaning is clear. If Scotland can create competing parliaments at its own whim then there is no incorporating union”

      Because there isn’t an incorporating union. They created a political union, aka a new legal entity as their way to keep both countries under the same crown. The imposition of the union was accelerated because of the Act of Security, which spook the English rulers. Proof of this is that this was one of the first things they repealed as soon as the union was formed. All what they cared about was the preservation of the same monarch in both countries, stop Scotland facilitating France the invasion of England and harvesting taxes for England’s wars. I am sure you will find that the concept of “incorporating union” is rather recent and started from the discovery of oil, that is, the point where Scotland ceased to be seen as a basket case.

      Besides if what you say was true, then the current situation where the state has 4 parliaments would be a direct breach of the first and fundamental article of the treaty. Is that what you are suggesting?

      The idea of an incorporating union is your interpretation of the article. It is what you want to read. But it is not what it is. If it was an incorporating union they would have never agreed to leaving two different bodies of law, different churches and differences in the matter of taxes between Scotland and England. And most certainly would not have agreed in the treaty to leave Scotland with a mint to print money. Does a political union where Scotland and England use and print different notes look like an incorporating union to you?

      “What Mia is forgetting is that the AG is referring to a normal treaty between independent sovereign states”

      No sweetie. The Withdrawal bill is a treaty between a state and an international organisation. The EU is not a state. It is a legal entity with the competence and authorisation of its member states to negotiate on their behalf and as a separate entity, yes, but it is not a state.

      “As already shown, the Treaty of Union is not governed by Vienna”
      But the Withdrawal Bill that with its clause 38 breaches the Claim of Right, a fundamental part of Scotland’s domestic legislation, is.

      “YES failed to win the 2014 referendum”
      A majority of native Scots voted for independence. If Scotland was any other country, with that result it would be independent today.

      “Scotland has not won a plebiscitary election on independence”
      Because the strong allergy of Sturgeon to independence denied us of the opportunity to take part in one in May 2021. Here is the hope some of her expensive and multiple spads introduces her to the wonders of anti-histamine tablets on time for the next general election.

      Liked by 4 people

    5. OK let’s keep it simple. The Treaty was signed by two sovereign states or kingdoms. Each has since remained a sovereign nation (see Westminster 2008) button a sovereign state. The Union was created by a Treaty negotiated by Queen Anne through commissioners and NOT by either the parliament of Scotland or England. So that this condition was placed on the Treaty and the Union itself which was to continue for ever and ever and ever and ever amen.

      And Act ratifying the Treaty… 1707 (Otherwise known as the Act of Union, Scotland)
      “And more especially Her Majesty with Advice and Consent aforesaid ratifies approves and for ever confirms the Fifth Act of the first Parliament of King William and Queen Mary intituled Act ratifying the Confession of Faith and settling Presbyterian Church Government with all other Acts of Parliament relating thereto in Prosecution of the Declaration of the Estates of this Kingdom, containing the Claim of Right bearing date the Eleventh of April One thousand six hundred and eighty nine …

      … And it is hereby statute and ordained that this Act of Parliament with the Establishment therein contained shall be held and observed in all time coming as a Fundamental and Essential Condition of any Treaty or Union to be concluded betwixt the two Kingdoms without any Alteration thereof or Derogation thereto in any sort for ever As also that this Act of Parliament and Settlement therein contained shall be insert and repeated in any Act of Parliament that shall pass for agreeing and concluding the foresaid Treaty or Union betwixt the two Kingdoms and that the same shall be therein expressly declared to be a Fundamental and Essential Condition of the said Treaty or Union in all time coming… ”

      So there you have. A Union for all time coming – with just one little fly iii the ointment for Westminster. There is also a “fundamental and essential condition of the said Treaty or Union inn all time coming”. The observance of the principles, if not the effect (which like the Treaty agreement on the price offer is anachronistic), go the Claim of Right. Whose principles, by the way, are clearer and more democratic than those in the Magna Carta and which no one has a problem separating from the dross of ‘whether your estate should pay “a Jew” what is owed’. A fundamental, permanent and essential condition, to a permanent Union, eh? And what are the principles in the Claim of Right. A legally limited government (the opposite of a sovereign parliament) and the right of the people to boot out any government that discards or breaks the laws concerning the rights and liberties of the Scottish people.

      Which comes first, the Treaty, the Acts or the agreed binding condition of both the Treaty and the Union? Full marks if you said ‘condition’. Has that condition been violated utterly and fraudulently while it remains as clear as the proverbial daylight? Full marks if you said yes.

      No observance of the permanent and unbreakable condition of the Union = no permanent and unbreakable Union.

      That’s that then. Thanks for the opportunity to make that crystal clear.

      Liked by 1 person

  11. @iainlawson27

    “Perhaps a lack of teaching of our history and rights? We were taught about Magna Carta, Waterloo, even Alfred burning the cakes but very little or in many cases none of our own history. ”

    Sorry if that happened to you, but that was not because of any sort of “Unionist policy”.

    Prior to the introduction of the 5-14 Curriculum in the early 1990s, there was no national curriculum in Scotland. There were only course specifications for O-grade and upwards, and they certainly included Scottish history.

    Below that level it was up to individual schools and their choices of what to teach was constrained by what books they could get.

    There were and are many more school textbooks on English history than on Scottish. And they were – and still are – much cheaper.

    That is the real reason why some people did not get taught much Scottish history in school.

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    1. Indeed, Sparks. At my school, we got Scottish and Irish history. Maybe some schools only taught British history. I love all history, including English history. I’m nit an Anglophobe, and I don’t believe that many Scots are; we just know the truth and we are not being told the truth.

      Liked by 8 people

      1. Indeed he might, Iain, which might reflect his own school experience and/or his current obsession with “decolonisation theory”.

        At my primary school we were given the full dose of Wallace / Bruce / Stirling Bridge / Falkirk / Bannockburn. I can clearly remember drawing battle diagrams showing the movement of schiltrons and cavalry.

        Baird’s professorship is something to do with boats, I have a PGDE which means I had to learn about the development of the Scottish school system and curriculum.

        It is exactly like I said. Some schools did not teach very much Scottish history below O-grade because they did not have the books to do it. Others did.

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      2. Forgot to add: it was the introduction of the 5-14 Curriculum in the early 90s which obliged all schools to teach Scottish history below certificate level.

        Early 90s – Conservative government….

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      3. My apologies, my PhD and other research work only concerned global maritime transport, and hence the study of global trade, and how nations develop a competitive advantage and grow their economy. Or not, as in the case of an exploited colonial Scotland.

        As you are an expert in Curriculum for Excellence perhaps you might inform us where the teaching of the Scots language fits into that?

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  12. Having read all this stuff about the Claim of Right, I still don’t see how it’s meant to help 21st century Scotland get independence from the UK. Can anyone explain?

    DT

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      1. So you really think that if Holyrood invoked the Claim of Right and declared independence Scotland could then without further ado take its place among the nations of the world and its seat at the UN? That the rest of the UK would of course fall into line and co-operate fully? That even when both the UK supreme court and government declared the whole thing illegal and half the people living in Scotland objected and refused to co-operate we’d get international recognition?

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      2. With everybody scrambling to wean themselves off Russian oil, I think international recognition would be the least of our worries.

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    1. The quintessential point of ” all that History stuff * is we , the people have the power to affect our own destiny .

      We lent our power to a succession of ne’er do wells of various eye-catching stripes , then forgot we’d lent it : eventually we came to believe we were in their debt .

      For ANYTHING to happen , first the idea , the imaginal possibility , must be planted and allowed to put out roots , tended diligently/lovingly .

      Till the flowering …….

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      1. We’ve had the idea. We’ve imagined the possibility – yes, how we’ve all imagined it. We’ve planted the seed and put out the roots. But then guess who’s just come along with the weedkiller……….

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      2. Davy T . Yes , it’s our great misfortune we’ve end-up with the blight of Sturgeon + sycophantic entourage , for sure .

        But I wasn’t just referring to the idea of Independence , as you say , that was planted ever since we lost it : rather , had it stolen from us and sold so very cheaply .

        I’m talking about the idea/s presented in these pages , specifically , these series of essays by Sara and the work of Alf Baird printed here and elsewhere and contained in his wonderful Doun – Hauden .

        Ideas that have the potential to free us not only from the * Union * , also from the fake * leadership * that seems intent on keeping us shackled to it .

        The more people are made aware of the power they/we already have the sooner we will achieve our liberation

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  13. It is with daveytee19’s questions (above) in mind that I post these extracts:

    ” In the most simple of terms: there are those in Scotland who wish to see Scotland regain its independence as a Sovereign country, there are also those who wish to see it remain part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (hereinafter “UK”). It creates matters of importance and considerable debate in Scotland, within the overall UK, and it also has geo-political implications, and it is the latter which in particular prompts this correspondence.

    There is widespread evidence, both past, current, and to be anticipated, that the current UK Government will resist (at best) and strongly oppose and reject (at worst) any attempt to resolve the question of whether the Sovereign people of Scotland can use normal democratic means of addressing the issue of Scotland regaining its independence, whether at elections or by way of referenda. It is important to note that potential denial of democratic means of resolving the issue affects both sides of the debate.”

    They come from the first letter I posted to the Secretary General of the United Nations, and with it was my own “Declaration of an individual Sovereign Scot”,, both on the 1320 nniversary last 6th April.

    That correspondence is ongoing and with each letter it is now being accompanied in each batch with hundreds of individually signed Declarations, and that number is increasing at each rally I attend..

    May I stress and stress emphatically two things 1) this is Stage 1 in this initiative and 2) I am more than acutely aware of the many obstacles this initiative will face – I stress that again – more than aware – that however is why I started nearly a year ago.

    Maybe, just maybe, the answers we need will come from asking questions of others.

    For instance when the members of the UN state this in more than one Resolution ” All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development”.

    if they believe that to be truly fundamental, we should ask them, even as individual members, whether those words -“all peoples” includes or excludes the people of Scotland?

    That form of questioning and more will form part of Stage 2.

    (Meanwhile I am off to the rally this Saturday, and will also be at Arbroath. to collect more signatures I hope – Stage 1 will run for while yet.)

    .

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    1. I’m sure that the Scots fall within the category of “all peoples”, but the major difficulty at the moment is that we cannot at the moment show that independence is what the Scots want. The UN will see that back in 2014 55% of people in Scotland who voted in the referendum said that they didn’t want independence and even today, notwithstanding the broken vow, the exit from Europe, and the continuing hostile actions of successive Conservative governments that we didn’t vote for, yes even after all that, about 50% of people living Scotland still want to stick with the UK. Unbelievable really, but so is the continuing reluctance of the so-called party of independence to do anything about it. All too often in history the Scots have managed to claw defeat from the jaws of victory and we seem to be at it again.

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  14. Iain said: “I believe all you need is one country to recognise your Independence then the UN route becomes available.”

    I don’t think that’s right. North Cyprus is recognised by Turkey, but isn’t a member of the UN. Kosova is recognised by over 100 states but isn’t a member because China and Russia vetoed its application. Taiwan is recognised by 22 states but isn’t a member of the UN. South Ossetia is recognised by Russia, Venezuala, Nicaragua and Nauru but it isn’t a member. There are a few others in a similar situation.

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    1. The point I am making is that it becomes a matter where the UN can become involved. I never ever suggested it would mean automatic entry. I also don’t believe any of the countries you mention are in the even most unlikely sense relevant to Scotland.

      Liked by 3 people

  15. At least three of my comments have gone AWOL again. Saw them clearly in WordPress and the number of comments changed to reflect their having been posted.

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      1. Och, no, I’m not accusing you, Iain. It’s the fact that they appear and are counted in the comments, then disappear again. It is very strange. Perhaps it’s an anomaly of WordPress?

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