WHAT NOW FOR SCOTTISH JURIES?

WHAT NOW FOR SCOTTISH JURIES?

JUSTICE OR INJUSTICE: ONE WOMAN’S UTTER DISILLUSIONMENT

by Lorncal

TWO television programmes these past weeks, and recent events, have brought me to a place I never thought I would find myself, albeit I knew, based on my reading of American jury studies years ago, that flaws in the system were very likely to be endemic and enduring: one was Channel 4’s ‘The Jury Murder trials’ (four parts); and the second was STV’s ‘The British Airways Killer’.  Both were English cases.  The first explored how two simultaneous juries came to very different decisions based on the exact same facts, and the second concentrated on how what appeared initially to be a cut-and-dried case of pre meditated murder was reduced to manslaughter by a jury which the judge thought must have been wilfully deaf and blind, as they apparently ignored all the prosecution evidence and the judge’s summing-up and direction.

In Scotland, as in England, jury trials are being questioned as costly and time-consuming while often displaying prejudice and waywardness.  It has been known for a long time (from the studies carried out in America) that juries are notoriously cognitively compromised by pre conceived bias because they are comprised of human beings who bring their societal and personal prejudices into the jury room.  Television pieces such as these cannot be taken as gospel, because they do want to engage the viewer and not churn out hopelessly boring programmes, but even if half of that which was shown was correct, and the transcripts would suggest that procedure was followed to the letter, we really do need, perhaps, to look again at juries and the service they provide, even if we end up with training for jurors.

After watching these two programmes, I was left in a state of horror and anger.  Firstly, in the Channel 4 four-parter, the two juries, the Red and the Blue both sat in the same courtroom, deliberating on the same case, but apart from each other, behind soundproofed compartments, unaware of each other’s existence.  The defendant (the accused, in Scotland) was being tried for the murder of his wife of two months, and the television programme was based on the court witness statements and documents, in transcript form, although the actual verdict in the case was not divulged.  The point was to see whether juries follow very particular, and, sometimes, very peculiar, so-called evidential paths to come to their decision.  It seemed here that emotion and persuasion by dominating personalities played a huge part in the final verdict

What was very disturbing from the beginning was the power play that took place in both the Red and Blue juries, more so in one, with certain individuals dominating throughout the case, although one jury was very obviously more dominated than the other, and these people were able to persuade the other members to their point of view.  Equally disturbing was the pre conceived ideas of gender stereotypes, with the female stereotype being casually, and in extremely sexist terms, prevalent in both juries.  The split by sex class was patently obvious, with the males, largely, pushing the agenda (not all) either way, more so in one jury than the other, and, alarmingly, the females, to a great extent, were overly and erratically empathetic and swayed by rhetoric, tears and regrets from the defendant when he gave evidence.  Too many jurors, both male and female, never questioned his veracity at all, accepting what he said as gospel.

His defence was based on the partial defence of ‘loss of control’ (ostensibly, provocation).  He had had a noisy argument with his wife, she had thrown and smashed crockery and other items, been shrieking and screaming at him, abusing him verbally, and he had tried to throttle her initially, stopping when she turned blue and became unconscious.  He then went outside to his workshop, several yards away, picked up a large work hammer and returned to the house and to his prostrate and unconscious wife, where he hit her very hard three times and smashed her skull.  The break in the action was crucial (you might have thought) where a case of murder could be reduced to manslaughter (culpable homicide, in Scotland) but both juries skated over it apart from one or two sharper individuals who saw the break in the action as a negation of the continued ‘loss of control’ from the argument to the attempted strangulation to the hammer blows.

Had the murder been the argument to the (successful) strangulation, or if the argument had gone straight to the crushing of the skull in a frenzy, you could see where manslaughter could be a mitigating factor because the defendant would have gone directly from the provocation of the argument and the abuse and the smashing of the crockery, etc., to a ‘loss of control’, but that break in the chain of action should have left room for doubt that the verdict could be manslaughter rather than murder.  It was quite appalling that so few jury members, in either jury, gave that any credence.

In the end, one jury brought in a verdict of ‘Not Guilty’ of murder (and, therefore, guilty of manslaughter) and the other brought in a verdict of murder.  Interestingly, the jury which was most obviously dominated by one individual whose prejudices against women were deep-rooted (she was not up to much, he thought, because she had had three children to three previous partners before her marriage); and her nagging and argumentative nature, her aggressive smashing of the crockery and her claimed spendthrift ways established by other witnesses for the defence, was the kind of thing that drove men to kill, he stated confidently, implying that she deserved all she got.  It was extremely chilling to listen to, and to witness the nodding donkeys who simply went along with it.

We heard little from witnesses for the prosecution, which made the programme somewhat lop-sided, but I can only assume that the television people did not want us to second-guess the actual jury verdict in the real trial during the programme instead of concentrating on the two randomly-selected juries made up of local people.  Few of the defence witnesses had a good word to say about the victim, and the family and friends of the real victim were angry that the (television) prosecution case had left them out, as they had much to say in her favour, they claimed, which we, the viewers never heard.

The judge evidently disagreed with the manslaughter verdict (judges cannot, by convention, overturn a jury decision) which appeared to have been the real verdict because, instead of the normal two-year tariff, he handed down a sentence of seven years, showing, perhaps, that judges, who know the law, as opposed to random citizens who do not, can be much closer to the truth, more objective and less swayed by emotion and the tears of the defendant?  That is what I took from it, anyway, and it was unsettling because I have long believed in the jury system, albeit I have also been aware that juries are mercurial and can be peculiar in their decisions which, sometimes, bear no relation to the actual events, as was so chillingly presented in this programme, although I have to say, in all fairness, that the defendant showed no signs of pre meditation until the actual incident itself, and I did not believe that he had had the necessary mens rea for murder up to the point when he broke the chain of action by leaving the scene and returning with the hammer and battering to death an unconscious and helpless woman.  That was my conclusion, anyway.  Others may have come to a different conclusion.

The second case, also based on the trial transcripts, was, if anything even more chilling and has made me doubt even more that justice can be achieved universally for half the human race, from our justice system as it stands.  The defendant in this case (the STV showing) was an apparently manipulative man (that is how he came across in the transcripts, although I do not know the actual case or the man involved) who was certainly manipulative and persuasive and appeared to show no remorse; he had also killed his wife, ex wife, although the circumstances were very different.  It seemed to me that, based on the evidence presented, it was a clear case of murder, pre meditated, and that he had the necessary mens rea for such.

The jury disagreed and brought back a verdict of ‘Not Guilty’ of murder, but guilty of manslaughter, normally carrying a two-year sentence.  In this case, the police believed that the man had dug a grave for his wife, (that is where she was discovered) and dropped a large chest into the ground ready to receive her body.  They ascertained that it must have taken him about a week or so in total to dig the hole (he was an airline pilot and often away from home, and the weight of earth would have necessitated several trips to dispose of it).  The grave was in a wooded area close to his former home, still occupied by his wife and two children.

On the night of the murder, he had brought his two children home after a stay with him and his pregnant girlfriend and an argument had ensued, he said.  He believed he should have received more financial support after the divorce from his ex wife who was independently wealthy.  He also bludgeoned his ex wife with a hammer and he was seen by his young daughter carrying her mother to the boot of his car.  The statement the child gave to the police was utterly devastating, chilling and so unutterably sad because she had seen her mother’s limbs hanging down and suspected she was dead.  He drove the children to his new home, in his car, with his ex wife’s body in the boot, telling them that he was going to take her to the hospital – which he had not done, of course.

Evidence, by friends of the ex wife, of prior domestic abuse was given at the trial but he denied it, claiming that his ex wife had made it up, and no other evidence of abuse was offered.  In the witness stand, he smiled at the jury members and gave a very succinct statement, explaining that the hole he had dug, the chest, etc., had been to hold all the divorce papers and all documents and items relating to his marriage, from which he wanted a clean break, painting himself as a much put-upon victim of his wife’s financial abuse and disaffection with him, which witnesses for the prosecution stated was nonsense.

After the jury had brought in its ‘Not Guilty’ of murder verdict, a gasp came from the courtroom, as the ex wife’s relatives and friends could not believe their ears.  That, of course, had been the real verdict from the real jury.  Neither, seemingly, could the judge believe his ears, and he ordered the jury to be present at the sentencing, when he went through the case again, point by point, and according to those who were in the court at the time, he appeared to be very angry at the jury’s verdict, the assumption being that they had not followed the evidence logically or reasonably and that they had ignored his direction.  On-lookers said that one woman was holding her head in her hands.

Rape cases where previous convictions might have brought a guilty verdict, but the accused’s prior record cannot be disclosed, are common enough, even where the woman or girl has had her reputation shredded and her every word and action placed under a proverbial microscope by the defence.  A recent Scottish murder case, brought after many years, where a great deal of evidence pointed to the accused at the time, was solved eventually through DNA evidence, although evidence of many sexual assaults by the accused had been placed before the police at the time of the murder and other evidence had held him to be known at the scene of the crime. 

The judge handed down a sentence in excess of 20 years in the real case reconstructed by STV, a tariff unheard of in modern times for manslaughter (or culpable homicide, in Scotland), stunning the TV defendant (actor) and very likely the real defendant who had been expecting a two-year tariff.  We could not know what the real jury had deliberated on and how and why they had reached the verdict they did, because jury deliberations are secret, but it appeared to be received with incomprehension by the judge, given the evidence against the defendant.  We must suppose that an appeal was out of the question because it might well have led to a minute scrutiny of the case and the defendant could have ended up with an even higher sentence.

In England, the jury comprises 12 persons (with a majority of ten); in Scotland, it is 15 for criminal trials and usually 12 for civil cases.  In England, it is in the Crown Court that murder trials and the more serious common law offences are tried, while, in Scotland, it is in the High Court of Justiciary (which is peripatetic and moves from city to city) where serious common law offences such as murder or rape are tried.  In England, the prosecution is carried out by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS); in Scotland, it is the Crown Prosecution and Procurator Fiscal Service (COPFS).  Scots Law has two types of criminal procedure: 1. solemn (serious offences, such as murder and rape) and these cases are tried before a jury; 2. summary (less serious, such as theft, assault) and these cases are tried before a judge/sheriff without a jury.

It has been mooted by our elected representatives that we might dispense with juries entirely and that even serious cases, normally solemn procedure, would become summary, in effect, i.e. without a jury.  Even a few months ago, I would have been completely opposed to this.  Truth to tell, I am coming round to the belief that women and girls in Scotland, in the UK, will not receive justice whatever happens.  Males will be allowed into women’s prisons to mix with female prisoners and for recreation purposes, apparently, despite Amy George and Isla Bryson.  How much evidence do our politicians need?  Scarcely a cheep from them, even when women’s lives may be at stake.  If a woman is raped or injured in prison, what are the chances of her receiving justice?  Little to none, I should think.

What was witnessed in those juries, in those programmes, was blatant and deep-seated misogyny, and even in death, females are denied respect and dignity.  I have now come to the conclusion that any form of justice for females is impossible to achieve, however we fiddle with the system because the hatred of females is so all-pervasive, so deep-rooted in some quarters, and so wilfully blind to reality.  Our elected representatives collude in the blatant removal of the rights our grandmothers and mothers fought so hard for so that they may be handed over to men who take everything from us.

I never thought to see the day when I, who have believed in the rule of law and democracy, freedom of speech and open debate my whole life, would come to this state where I have no confidence at all in our legal system, our justice system, our political system, in any of our institutions whatsoever or in the people who participate in, and run, these systems and institutions.  Like so many other women, I have believed in independence for Scotland almost for the whole of my life, like generations before me – and I still do, passionately – but I must now question the relevance of independence for females in Scotland when our rights are being taken away with impunity by men who want to be us?  What kind of Scotland would we be entering where our rights mean so little?  I think every female in Scotland has to ask herself these questions and ask, too, why our rights mean so little to the body politic, the body financial, the body legal, the body social?  

No doubt exists in my mind that juries in Scotland, made up of my fellow citizens, bring now, and would bring in the future, the same prejudices and deep-seated misogyny as those English juries, and , every day that passes, I am becoming less and less sure about where I stand on much at all now because every institution has let women and girls down so badly it feels that quicksand is beneath my feet.  Have we deserved this? Have we asked for too much?  Is it too much to want juries to not bring their prejudices into the jury room with them?  Why, in the 21st century, do they still have them?  Is it too much to ask for all biological men to show us basic human respect because, without it, we are vulnerable to losing everything, including our lives, potentially?   How have we reached this place where every right has to be fought for all over again through the courts, the very courts that have let us down so badly?  Why are women and girls expected to conform to male stereotypes of who and what we are, how we should behave?  Would it be the end of the world if juries no longer existed?  Would judges who know the law be any less misogynistic than juries that do not?  If those two cases and the three juries on them are anything by which to judge, the answer must be a qualified yes.  However, I should imagine that many men, who appear, in general, to be treated strangely leniently by so many juries, would not agree and would demand that their rights be respected while trampling on ours.  Yet again, the split in opinion runs along lines of biological sex.    

 
MY COMMENTS

The above article is the ultimate proof that I run this blog on the basis of free speech. I strongly disagree with Lorna’s article and I am totally opposed to removing the safeguard of judgement by your peers rather than in the hands of a single or handful of judges. When I get some time I will pen a full article explaining my reasoning on this but in the meantime I offer Lorna’s article for your consideration.

I am, as always

YOURS FOR SCOTLAND.

54 thoughts on “WHAT NOW FOR SCOTTISH JURIES?

  1. On the matter of assertive jurors exerting disproportionate influence on the panel perhaps jurors should each be required to consider the evidence and reach a verdict independently of the others.

    All persons called upon to adjudicate at trial bring with them a whole set of cognitive filters and bias no matter who they are , or how aware of these limitations they may be. We see that in the seemingly lenient sentences handed down by judges in some cases to convicts of high social status compared to those from less privileged background. I would not be so sure to believe that jury free trials yield better justice.

    Liked by 14 people

    1. Although I still believe in trial before one’s peers, I was shocked that the same prejudices and biases, the same power struggles, were apparent in those English cases around thirty years later as were evident in the American jury studies. I have no doubt that Scottish juries would be found to show the same prejudices, biases and power struggles, and it is very disappointing that little has changed in that time. I would never claim that all juries do not bring in a decision based solely on the evidence, but many appear not to either understand the evidence before them or disregard it in favour of preconceived biases, especially against female victims who seem to be expected to behave, dress, act, speak, etc. in certain ways.

      Liked by 5 people

  2. Judicial decisions are based upon law and fact. The role of the judge is to advise on law. The subjective element relies upon interpretation of fact.

    Juries are comprised of 15 human beings from varied backgrounds and ages, who have no vested professional interest in the outcome of the trial. After the trial they disperse anonymously.

    Judges too are human beings who bring their own prejudices and upbringings to deciding fact. If they get the ‘law’ element wrong, theoretically their decision can be overturned upon appeal. However interpretation of fact cannot be overturned irrespective of whether made by 15 jury men and women from a wide spectrum of life or a single judge.

    A key point is that judges have professional ambitions that are influenced and sometimes decided by politicians. Any alarm bells ringing?

    Craig Murray case anyone? Even where 3 judges sit together there is a senior judge (Lord Justice Clerk Lady Dorian anyone?) who exerts influence.

    In the lower courts I have viewed examples of poor decision making by sheriffs who have not bothered to read all the relevant documents before them, and sheriff principals who should have but have not overturned flawed decisions because of the Old Boys and Girls Network. From being a wholehearted admirer of the judiciary I now see its members as equally prone to human frailty as jury members and with undoubtedly more vulnerability in the case of the higher courts to experiencing political fall out from a decision that politicians don’t like, than 15 anonymous members of the public.

    Liked by 18 people

    1. I absolutely agree, Joan, and I will never forget the judgment of Judge Christmas, in England, a number of years ago, when he allowed a young man who was to become a soldier to basically walk away free to pursue his career, while the young woman was left grievously injured to the extent that she would never bear children. As I said, I am just hanging on to the jury system. One judge would not sit alone either in a case of murder or rape, I think. I am very conflicted.

      Liked by 7 people

      1. The right to trial before a jury of our peers in one of the oldest and most fundamental rights we hold. To even suggest this should be taken from us should call us to civil dissent – lets face it our ancestors did not win those rights by asking nicely. Judges are political puppets and cannot be trusted. We in Scotland should surely know that? Judges, the COPFS and the polis all sit cozily in the pocket of power. Malfeasance can only be prosecuted when the whole lot of them are not at it.

        Whatever the issues with juries may be they must be resolved while retaining the jury system. Training in a process that focuses on the facts of evidence maybe – I don’t pretend the answer is simple – but juries must stay.

        Liked by 8 people

      2. Marion, I get what you are saying, but we are getting to a point where the cost will eventually deny us justice. The NHS and the legal service are falling apart because we are cutting corners and not investing enough in them at the most basic levels. I’m not suggesting that we should do away with juries per se, but, perhaps we do need to look at this system again and see how we can make it more efficient. Women simply do not get a fair crack of the whip and this is becoming endemic, if it was ever anything else. I know that it is the wider societal prejudices and biases that are taken into the jury room, but, if women are not receiving their fair share of justice – and they are patently not – what can we do? Just shrug and say, “oh, well…”?

        Liked by 3 people

  3. I am old enough to remember when the automatic penalty for being found guilty of murder was death by hanging. Sometimes Juries would find the defendant [accused] “Not guilty.” This was not because of the lack of evidence put before them, but because a majority of the members of the jury were ideologiccaly opposed to the death penalty. This situation was resolved. eventually, by ending the death penalty.
    As the writer of the article mentions, individuals making up juries bring with them all their prejudices to the jury room and strong willed, highly determined individuals can see it as their right to impose their prejudices on others. , In my opinion, the nett outcome in some trials is that certain juries will come to the wrong decision, especially if little/no scientific evidence is produced by either party. Trials without a Jury is supported by some people in certain circumstances, but who is to say that certain judges will not bring their prejudices to the court room either? [Or the investigating Police Officer/s for whom the reward of promotion in the event of a successful prosecution may well be a part of their motivation?] Society will need to tread VERY carefully if serious offences are tried without a jury in the future. A totally foolproof method of arriving at the correct decision in 100% of all cases by any method is simply not possible.

    Liked by 10 people

    1. Training of juries might be a possibility, Ian, to help them understand the complexities of the evidence and their duty to keep emotion out of their decision. Where a case hinges on ‘who do you believe?’, I think that females are going to lose out on a fair assessment. The American studies, and the television ones, all showed that female jurors are more prone to letting emotion get the better of them but also were more prone to being ‘hard’ on their own sex. It is a conundrum that owes its origins, I think, to societal expectations of females.

      Liked by 5 people

  4. This is, of course, a very sensitive matter.

    I do agree with the claim in the article that people comprising juries will bring their prejudices e.g. misogynistic, racist, stereotypical into court with them. They are human after all and we can’t expect them to be perfectly devoid of some of these flawed characteristics.

    However, surely the point of having 15 (or 12) randomly selected human beings to comprise the jury is to ensure that there is some kind of balance and that the risk of the imposition of a bias or biases is spread/mitigated?

    I take the point about the danger of an individual or individuals dominating jury deliberations behind closed doors and potentially unfairly influencing the outcome of these proceedings. Perhaps the answer is to have potential jury members interviewed as to their suitability based on a set of agreed criteria (life experience, strength of character, articulation etc) and then formally appointed?

    On the possibility of juryless trials for “solemn” offences the judge may have expertise in the law but isn’t it more than possible that they would bring their own prejudices into court? Maybe not misogynistic or racist but some other kind of motivation e.g. political. Plus an individual could more easily be ‘got at’ or intimidated than a group of persons. And in this this event there would be no counterweight to the judge’s view whose word would be ‘God’s word’ as he/she gets to be jury and executioner/sentencer too.

    The latter is one of the evident dangers in the Victims, Witnesses and Justice Reform Bill brought forward recently by the Scottish Government.

    For these reasons I cannot support juryless trials.

    Liked by 15 people

    1. I agree with much of that, duncanio, and I certainly do not believe that judges are free from bias and prejudice either. To err is human, to forgive divine. What I am really trying to explore is whether female people, in certain circumstances, can ever really receive justice from a system that is drawn from a wider society that is, itself, prejudicial towards females. I know that miscarriages of justice happen where men are concerned, too, but it seems to me that, taking away racism, classism, etc. we are left with sexism and sometimes, misogyny. Most alleged rape cases will come down to “he said, she said” because of the very nature of the crime of rape itself, and evidence will be sparse. In most crimes where it is a man’s word against a woman’s or girl’s, prejudice rears its head. For example, the Sarah Everard case (and many others) prove without a shadow of a doubt that blatant misogyny exists in every part of society. It is endemic. What do we do about that vis-a-vis the jury system?

      By the way, I would like to say that, on the evidence led in court, the Salmond case was, in my opinion, fairly decided and had a judge, or more than one, been sitting instead of a jury, the same verdict would have been reached based on that evidence. Where evidence itself is flawed, and based on the legal hurdle of ‘beyond reasonable doubt’, a not guilty or not proven verdict is unassailable. I wish more people would accept that.

      Liked by 3 people

  5. I’m surprised that the SNP have not proposed Artificial Intelligence juries.

    I mean AI already already profiles people and makes decisions in many areas of people’s lives

    Sounds good to me – eh what?

    Liked by 4 people

    1. It’s because we are human that we need juries composed of humans.

      Decisions in the gift of one sole solitary human from an exclusive select rank of humans is not a fantastic idea and I think most of us understand that quite well.

      The removal of juries is profoundly undemocratic. But we do not live in a democracy, and the colonial administrators that are the SNP are profoundly undemocratic and authoritarian.

      Liked by 13 people

      1. Yes, good point, Willie. However, since judges are usually well-educated, usually at middle-class public (private) schools, and have had a long career at the Bar, it seems unreasonable to suppose that wee Jimmy or Jeannie with no qualifications could be contenders. The one great stipulation is that judges should know the law and understand the weight of evidence or otherwise. However, juries are made up of mixed classes, educated and less well-educated (and nothing intrinsically wrong with that) and they may not have the skills to sift through the evidence and understand the complexities and nuances. That was certainly the impression I got from those television juries and the jury from the other case.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. But here in the real world of Scotland today we have Dorian – Judge Dread(ful).

        As Scottish justice circles the drain we must hold tight to the few remaining safeguards we have. Surely the Stalinist show trials and use of ‘process as punishment’ we have endured should wake us up to what our “leaders” and their minions are all about? They are all about power, their next promotion and their sweet, sweet pension.

        Liked by 6 people

  6. David Simon, co-creator of The Wire was a crime reporter on the Baltimore Sun for many years. His first foray away from journalism was the epic book, Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets (1991). This takes a form similar to Moby Dick in that the main narrative is a standard sequential story (nonfiction in Simon’s case) interspersed with technical essays.

    In one essay Simon explores the problems obtaining a functionally competent jury in inner city America in the 1990’s. This is attributed in part to the disruptive influence of popular TV drama. These shows presented mercurial, photogenic lawyers delivering pithy, devastatingly gotchas proving innocence or guilt. This is entirely unrepresentative of reality and gave the jury unrealistic expectations.

    This situation is exhaserbated further by so-called Crime Scene Investigation shows these days. My contempt for this pseudo scientific nonsense cannot be overstated. 

    Simon points to Forensic Scientists giving deposition to the jury, trying to educate them on the reality of crime scene science, but this is done “on the hoof” as a preamble to their testimony in the actual Courtroom.

    Perhaps those selected for final jury swearing-in in a Solemn case should undergo a couple of days orientation before the presentation of evidence.

    Liked by 12 people

    1. Again, agree, Vivian. The two simultaneous/parallel juries in the first case (the actual trial transcripts were used throughout) were swayed this way and that, but, often, by one individual on the jury with a strong personality and deep-rooted prejudices or they simply ignored the chain of events (chains of evidence are crucial in law). In the second case, the jury very obviously allowed the defendant (accused) to sway them with such blatant lies that it was difficult to comprehend what I was seeing and hearing. The eventual manslaughter (culpable homicide) was so unrealistic given the evidence, that the judge was outraged and gave the man a sentence that was much, much longer than the usual two-year tariff for manslaughter, thereby circumventing, to some extent, the jury’s ludicrous decision. I had to agree with him. The chain of evidence showed murder, not manslaughter, but the jury ignored it all, including the judge’s direction. The case with the two juries was also wrongly decided in my opinion, by the jury that brought in manslaughter, as the chain of evidence was broken by the defendant breaking off from the strangulation to fetch a hammer, but I believe it was swayed by a man who held and articulated very misogynistic and sexist views of females: the “well, she deserved it” prejudice because she had had three children by three different fathers. In the sentencing, it was obvious (well, to me) that the judge thought the jury that had brought in the manslaughter verdict was too lenient based on the actual evidence.

      Liked by 1 person

  7. In his definition of judicial independence, Guy Green stresses the importance of what he calls the ‘constitutional imperative’, which he describes as

    …the capacity of the courts to perform their constitutional function free from actual or apparent interference by … any persons or institutions, including … the executive arm of government

    If that was the only thing standing between me and a long stretch in Barlinnie, I would be pretty worried – as anyone who lived through the Sturgeon Years should be.

    And there are many more reasons to be dubious about Lorna’s powerful ideal of an ‘objective and impartial’ judge, faithfully applying the ‘proper judicial method’. The notion that the ‘nobs in wigs’ are free of any inappropriate connection, bias or influence and will deal equally with all those before them is a dream of perfect justice.

    As flawed as the present system is, a jury comprised of ordinary people – our peers – is the best hope of delivering justice to ordinary people.

    Liked by 10 people

    1. Oh no, that is not what I said, string, not at all. I believe absolutely in the separation of powers. Lawyers and judges, the Judiciary, do not welcome interference from the Executive, in my experience. I am a realist, not an idealist. The separation of powers must always be defended, and I take your point. For example, forcing females who have been raped to use ‘she/her’ pronouns for the accused, in a court of law, and by the police, where the truth is the ideal, and which has been promoted by government, is beyond belief. Yet, it is happening. My motive in writing the piece was to provoke discussion around the principles that we all take for granted, but which might not actually be fit for purpose in the modern age. Are women being abandoned by all arms of the law?

      Liked by 3 people

      1. Thanks for your reply, Lorna – I take your word that you are not arguing for the abolition of the jury system. That, however, is the clear implication of your characterisation of juries, where “nodding donkeys” are exposed to “dominating personalities” while “often displaying prejudice and waywardness” and reaching “peculiar decisions” not supported by the evidence…

        “…showing, perhaps, that judges, who know the law, as opposed to random citizens who do not, can be much closer to the truth, more objective and less swayed by emotion and the tears of the defendant”

        The logical consequence of all that is not additional training for jurors – especially when the Auditor General for Scotland has pointed out that average waiting times for solemn cases has more than doubled since 2020, and the justice system is, em, criminally under-funded and under-resourced. It is to get rid of the divvies, with all of their flaws.

        That leaves us with the Judges.

        It is suggested that a ‘disinterested and impartial’ judge, “less swayed by emotion”, is likely to produce verdicts that are more ‘reliable’ and closer to ‘true justice’. But forby other objections to abolishing trial by jury, the strict application of the Law should be tempered by the subjective humanity and responsiveness of Justice – and juries provide that. Even if they don’t ‘get it right’ every time.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Juries seem to me to be a very amateur and costly way of dealing in justice, but that does not mean we should throw out the baby with the bathwater. Justice, of course, will often be illusory in any case? What verdict would ever bring back a beloved child or relative or assuage a person’s psychological damage after a vicious sexual assault?

        I have to say that I was appalled and deeply affected by the message that came from those three juries, in line with the American findings – that women are not treated, by and large, as autonomous human beings, but as persons who must adhere to certain ways of being that live up to societal expectations or risk being sidelined by the jury in favour of a lying, mendacious murderer or rapist. Apart from treason, these are the only crimes that are deemed serious enough to be tried in the High Court, in Scotland.

        I would never claim that a jury never gets it right because they obviously do, but too many accused walk away with less that their due if the woman’s character can be impugned – which it still can be despite rules that limit this. It is interesting that Luke Mitchell was a young boy. A judge of another era once said that women and young boys lie (in court). Those were his words, so hardly free of bias or prejudice either. If we are to retain jury trials, perhaps it is time that we looked at how jurors are chosen, but, again, this would be time-consuming and costly as they would have to be tested.

        Perhaps the judge should start the trial with a dire warning to the jury that they must put all emotion aside and decide solely on the evidence placed before them, aided by the judge’s direction, and, if any juror is found to have tried to unduly influence the others, he/she will be found in contempt of court. Because the jury room is off limits, the verdict reached is secretly arrived at and the judge cannot formally overturn a jury’s decision, it would be difficult to ascertain, but the warning might be enough.

        The poor plays in the double jury scenario was quite chilling, and one jury was willing to overlook the smashing of a woman’s skull, as she lay helpless and unconscious because she was no better than she should be, as the saying goes – and this in the 21st century! The second trial, where the real jury’s verdict was echoed in the television documentary, based on the trial transcripts, was also chilling, when, yet again, a manipulative and plausible defendant sweet-talked the jury into bring in a manslaughter verdict when it was plainly murder based on the evidence. In the two-jury case, the evidence suggested that the defendant had no premeditated mens rea (intent) for murder but his actions, by breaking the chain of action strongly leaned towards his having committed murder, nevertheless. In the second case, the defendant had the necessary mens rea way before the actual killing of his wife, and should have been found guilty of murder, not manslaughter. How many other cases like these are there?

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      3. Thanks for another reply, Lorna. Scotland has retained a unique criminal justice system – despite efforts by some to ‘bring it into line with England’ – including the 15-person jury, with many Scottish legal professionals taking the view that the larger jury reduces the role that bias may play in the decision-making process.

        Innovation is taking place, including, for example, an increase in the number of evidence by commission suites available, enabling vulnerable child and adult witnesses to give evidence in a supportive environment. Many legal professionals have raised concerns about the impact of alternative methods of giving evidence on jurors’ credibility assessments and other matters, and there are no easy answers, but there are continuing efforts to improve the quality of justice in Scottish courts, even if some proposals are controversial and/or misconceived.

        Despite assurances to the contrary, your article and many responses focus not on these and other initiatives, but on ridding Scotland of the scourge of “very amateur and costly” juries.

        Your contempt for the jury system is palpable, and that is unfortunate given the alternatives (having their own extensive list of flaws), and the long history of juries acting as a check on abuse by the State and the Judiciary, defending the individual and the public interest in the face of the law if a guilty verdict would be morally repugnant and deny justice.

        Of course juries are far from perfect, because they are us. Which is also their greatest strength.

        Could juries benefit from training? Quite possibly. But that would have to take place against the background of the Scottish Courts’ efforts to clear a huge backlog of trials, and – of course – nae money.

        In A Theory of Justice, John Rawls writes that “A society regulated by a public sense of justice is inherently stable” – we don’t really have that, but we should expect it in the liberated Scotland to come, and juries will be essential to the process.

        Liked by 6 people

      4. “… Your contempt for the jury system is palpable… “

        Really? How on earth do you come to that conclusion from my piece and replies to comments? I know that improvements have been made to several areas, and I do applaud those. I have explained in other comments that I would abhor any interference in the separation of powers and I have already explained that I am not resolutely against jury trials; I see them as very flawed in some respects; and I have made suggestions as to how they might be tightened up for all of us. You do not have to accept those suggestions or any of my piece, but please do not put words into my mouth. I am and have always been a democrat, a liberal (small ‘l’) and a stout advocate for the separation of powers. My beef with the jury system is not the juries per se, as I have also said, but with the seemingly unending prejudices and biases and power struggles that are brought into the jury room, and from which terribly unjust decisions are made.

        I am not advocating for the removal of the jury system per se: I am advocating for a tightening up of the jury system so that patently unfair and discriminatory decisions are not reached on the basis of prejudice and bias. Whenever women try to suggest changes that might help us and which would not hinder innocent men, we receive a pile-on out of all proportion to our requests. If we are not prepared to even compromise, we will end up losing the jury system, if not soon, then later.

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  8. On another note what do our fellow humans here in Scotland think about the security apparatus now blocking many many foreign TV channels.

    Russia Today news is the obvious one. George Galloway was on it yesterday saying that the UK was no democracy at all, that free speech was being curtailed, that the media was being manipulated, that people who spoke nothing but the truth were being jailed without trial for years. Galloway even named outlets being blocked.

    People a free to try it out and see the ” hmnn – that page can’t be reached “ but it’s actually much more hidden than that across the platforms – and how many of us have seen blog comments disappear into the ether. Blog interference, no never, not here in Bonnie Scotland.

    And as Iain and Ewen Kennedy covered earlier SLAPPs and their hidden friends the super injunction they are just another part of a ruling elites suppressing public awareness.

    We truly live in evil fascist times. Indeed we could be in a major all out conflagration soon with out any decision on the part of the people of this country. And how many of us know that UK troops are already on the ground fighting in various theatres across the world from Ukraine, to Gaza to Syria to Lebanon. We read of the Naval and Airforce sorties but troops on the ground. And the Scottish Government want to abandon trial by juries.

    Truly, they are Johnny come Lately two bit fascists. And I do not underestimate my words when I say fascists. But I suppose they’ve still to announce trials in secret that they don’t seem to have got round to just yet.

    Nacht und Nebel folks. That’s the ticket. It’s an old Gaidhlig dictum and just the dictum for the nu-SNP.

    Liked by 5 people

    1. I think what we are witnessing is less the undermining of the judicial system as the undermining of democracy itself, which, of course, the judicial system is part of, yet should be separate from in all instances. In effect, the law is being expected to ‘fix’ the breakdown in government through law cases brought by individuals and groups in society, where the government is unwilling to act fairly and judiciously, for want of a better word. This is a huge problem now, and is a distinct sign of an erosion of societal cohesion, and it will become worse, I think, which is all the more reason that we need our judicial system to work as it should, without fear or favour. It is politicians who have brought us to this state of affairs in recent years because of their corruption and/or ineptitude – and, crucially, especially in Scotland, their refusal to follow the law of the land.

      Liked by 3 people

  9. In Scotland I would imagine that there aren’t so huge a number of solemn cases that Vivianoblivian ‘s sound idea of a couple of days orientation couldn’t be undertaken.

    Liked by 6 people

  10. I come to this as someone who has sat on a jury for a multiple rape trial. Whilst anecdote is not data, I can honestly say that this jury was not influenced by sexism nor misogyny. I’m legally limited in what I can say but if any case would have brought out such attitudes, this one would have. Maybe I was lucky and this was before the rise of gender ideology.

    Others have already posted my rebuttal points and some of what would have been my suggested remedies. I am vehemently against the removal of juries. Judges are drawn from a very narrow selection of society and have their own prejudices because of this. I trust judges on their knowledge of the law but not in their ability to overcome prejudices more than the average juror. We don’t know HOW the jurors in the above tv programmes were selected but it was not random as in real life, as they would have had to volunteer to appear and that may well have influenced the “type” of people wating to take part who will perhaps have been selected after interview because of their views rather than randomly form the already skewed pool.

    However, jury duty is a very serious matter and I do think that training for jurors should be available but this would need the current system to be altered as once you are selected you go immediately into the trial. This may become more important in future due to the increasing prevalence of misogyny and I think where Lorna is correct is in worrying where this might lead in the future. But for me the solution is to tackle the current climate where women’s rights are being eroded.

    The Equal Treatment Bench Book has a whole section about “trans” defendants and has resulted in women having to call their penis having attackers “she”. It was written by judges, including a trans identified prostate owner, who has now resigned. (With the Hate Crime Act due to be implemented on 1 April – how appropriate – I’m avoiding pronouns!) So would be be any safer with judges alone?

    I understand Lorna’s worries but I feel the solution is the wrong one. But I do thank her for considering the issue and Iain for publishing views that he doesn’t share. Would that more considered it!

    Liked by 7 people

    1. Agreed, your early paragraphs are exactly the points I included in my submission to the consultation on the bill. Whether any contributions opposing the removal of juries, even for a test period, will be listened to at all remains to be seen.
      I do think an induction process is essential these days, and is perfectly, if imperfectly, possible through a variety of methods. As raised earlier, the plethora of dramatic but misleading tv series is a real source of misconceptions, one might say misinformation, about how to evaluate evidence.
      Juries, being people, are imperfect and unreliable, but so are judges and lawyers etc. Having a fairly random team of 15 , not dependent on political influences and professional reputation, remains in my view the best buffer we have against greater injustice.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. Do not put words into my mouth, Republic. No, I do not think it is right for any woman to falsely accuse a man. Can you tell me what the statistics are for that? Last time I studied it, it was around 3-4%, exactly in line with all other false allegations pertaining to all other crimes. If the court is convinced that the woman had made a false allegation, she will be jailed. That is the law.

      You are right, though in that if the evidence is not there, no conviction should be made. That is precisely what happens. The problem lies in the lack of evidence for sex crimes because of their nature, and the propensity of men accused of rape to defend themselves by using the consent defence. An accused will usually, almost universally, not opt to admit guilt, but will put a woman or girl through the mill before being found guilty, if he is subsequently found guilty – and it is a mill, which grinds them to dust. I accept that there is no other way, however, which is why I believe that video link should always be the preferred method of giving evidence. I would also like to see special courts set up for the crime of rape because there is no other crime like it where evidence can be so sparse and alleged victims have to go such an ordeal even before they appear in court.

      Panda Paws is right about the ‘trans’ input which can only make things worse for women, girls and children. I have also sat through a rape trial, years ago, before the new rules used now came into play, and it was horrendous. I am not, as I said, opposed to jury trials per se, and I respect others’ viewpoint, but the law is letting us down in every direction; I can honestly say that I have never witnessed such rage in women as I have recently, and it has been building on the pre existing rage that the high rape statistics and low rape conviction statistics have engendered.

      In an independent Scotland, I would expect women and girls to be treated better, but I am not holding my breath. The runes are not good.

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  11. I agree with Iain. Although I dont disagree entirely with Lorna’s statement. I don’t think this Scottish Government who allow male convicts into female prisons, to make decisions on whether we should have jury free trials.

    I remember the Luke Mitchell case. There was no solid evidence found aginst him, but he has been in jail for over 20 years. The cover up of Jimmy Saville. The jailing of Craig Murray. the assault of a woman at a women won’t wheesht meeting. Witnessed by the police, who did nothing. I could go on.

    Liked by 5 people

    1. I think that the problem for females of the jury system is very much older than any Scottish government, but I agree that recent governments have been totally inept in their unwillingness to be guided by the existing law of the land and have actually exacerbated what was a massive problem already. What I see is a breakdown in responsibility in all layers of the legal system and an executive layer that refuses to abide by the law in its efforts to push through public policy which is highly unpopular.

      Having said that, the problems that I am trying to highlight go deeper, right to the root of the judicial/justice/legal system itself. The difficulties in getting Luke Mitchell’s case looked at again, for example. The system seems to dig in its heels. What was the jury in his case faced with except flawed and tainted evidence that fell short, if the recent unearthing of apparently new evidence is to be accepted as true? What do we do about alleged miscarriages of justice where juries have either not decided on the strength or otherwise of the evidence, or the evidence is fatally flawed but is accepted and someone is jailed as a result? Or if material evidence is missing, but someone appears to be telling the truth? Perhaps professional, trained juries are the answer, who can move around with the court and who are trained to look at the evidence dispassionately? I do not know, but there does appear to be a great deal of law and little justice in so many cases, especially with female victims. How to fix it? A much wider societal discussion is required, I think.  

      Liked by 2 people

  12. I’m sorry but I don’t agree with juryless trials period, different juries act differently having a coupe of juries that don’t live up to scratch shouldn’t see the whole system pushed aside for juryless trials.

    The reason the LA and the SNP want juryless trials in sexual cases is to get the conviction rates up, but his should always be evidence led, figures should not be massaged via juryless trials to get the conviction rates up.

    Craig Murray had no jury and he was found guilty by a judge who wouldn’t even let him present all his evidence in his defence.

    Ask yourself would Alex Salmond been found not guilty if there were no jury on his trial

    Finally look what’s happening to Julian Assange he’s been imprisoned in Belmarsh prison WITHOUT charge for years now, his health has deteriorated and he’ suffered a heart attack.

    Once you start down the road of juryless trials, its not that far a step until Roland Freisler type judges start appearing and they begin to dish out very severe sentences, on what could be innocent people.

    Juries MUST remain in Scotland.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. So, Republic, we must accept that women and girls will not receive justice in rape trials – at least, not a lot of the time? Or in many domestic violence cases that end in killings? You think it’s all about getting conviction rates up and not to try to eliminate gross unfairness? You see, this is exactly what bothers me about the justice system. While I can accept that, in cases where there is no evidence whatsoever, and it comes down to “he said, she said”, it will be very difficult to convict given the nature of the types of the alleged crimes. However, in a different system for sexual and violent crimes, where the adversarial system is suspended, and an interrogatory system put in place, the conviction rate and justice would be more inclined to run parallel. Looked at baldly, if women and girls are not receiving justice, then many men must be getting away with ‘murder’, literally and metaphorically. That does not bother you?

      I know Craig Murray had no jury, and I regret that he was convicted because I believe he is a good man at heart, and I contributed to his fighting fund. He did, however, breach a court order, did he not? He was not convicted for no reason. This is exactly what I mean by bringing personal emotions into what should be a straightforward decision based on evidence. If the evidence is tainted, flawed or insufficient, then an acquittal should be also be straightforward.

      I believe that, jury or no jury, Alex Salmond would have been acquitted because the evidence was entirely insufficient and some of it flawed and tainted. It would have been a travesty of justice to have found him guilty on such flimsy evidence. Any judge who did would have been subject to censure. The judge in his case directed the jury very fairly and he was acquitted. The law actually did its job.

      Julian Assange’s is a complicated and very unfortunate case in that he did what he is accused of, but with good intentions, and his bravery in doing so cannot be denied. It might have gone better for him had he just faced up to the charges at the beginning and stood trial. It is a tragedy in the proper sense of that word, and, personally, I do not feel, or have ever felt, that he should be handed over to the Americans. A good case could have been made for his being autistic and a lenient sentence handed down. As it is, his life has been one of incarceration anyway, constant hounding and terrible conditions. I hope that he does escape extradition and that he is freed. No justice can be possible now, just vengeance which the law was designed to prevent.

      I am not trying to make a case for jury-less trials and I am well aware that miscarriages of justice occur for men, too. I am trying to make a case for a different approach, essentially, to male on female crimes: perhaps a different court, less formal, evidence by video link, training of jurors, with, perhaps, a professional jury or a professional lawyer sitting in on jury deliberations to keep jurors on track with the evidence. We really do need to think about all these things instead of just giving a knee-jerk reaction because, a) the subject is going to arise again, and probably soon and change may come about for all the wrong reasons; and, b) because many females in our society believe that they will never receive justice from the system. Others may feel the same, but the sex divide in so many aspects of society are beginning to become stark and they will have to be dealt with if females are not going to simply walk away from all co-operation. We are talking about half the human race, half the population.

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      1. I think you raise some good suggestions in the last paragraph, especially having a trained lawyer sit in to help bring a jury back to evidence and flag up prejudice, also to explain any legal misunderstandings that may arise, though not to direct or vote.
        I see no reason why a more interrogative process shouldn’t also involve a jury, that in itself might help train jurors.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Yes, surfsensei, I think we are going to have to drag the legal system into the 21st century or women will be totally alienated from the system and will continue to suffer horrendous abuse with impunity. I am playing Devil’s Advocate here, but we are going to have to face the push by the government, I think, for jury-less trials, very soon. Ways of using the system more efficiently for all must be the motive, not just paring down the service to a cost-cutting scheme that will see the service deteriorate. It was all three juries’ lack of sticking to the evidence that really got to me, and the same thing was found in the American trials some thirty or more years ago. This is the area that really needs to be tightened up, I think, as, on the one hand, they sometimes convict on minimal and scrappy evidence, and, on the other, they sometimes do not convict on powerful evidence, and, because jury deliberations are secret in the interests of justice, we never know how they arrived at their conclusions. It is also women and girls who suffer injustice more, and, again, the American system showed the same facts. It is not enough any longer to simply shrug and say it doesn’t matter. It matters to females who are being short-changed by the present system.

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      3. “So, Republic, we must accept that women and girls will not receive justice in rape trials – at least, not a lot of the time? ”

        Lorncal.

        Not at all if the evidence is there to convict then that is fine, if not then there can be no conviction, its a two-way street as they say. If a woman accuses a man of rape or sexual assault and she has done this say out of anger and a judge convicts him without a jury and most importantly EVIDENCE would that be okay with you? You probably think ah, so what if the odd innocent guy gets banged up, we’re still making progress.

        “He did, however, breach a court order, did he not? He was not convicted for no reason.”

        Did he really? can you provide evidence of this? Murray was convicted on the words and opinions of a judge not a jury, he’s the only person EVER to have been convicted and imprisoned for jigsaw identification, even though at least two MSM journalists DID reveal some of the Alphabet women’s names without any recourse.

        Murray was convicted simply because he exposed the shame trial of Alex Salmond, who would NEVER have been acquitted without a jury.

        “Julian Assange’s is a complicated and very unfortunate case in that he did what he is accused of, but with good intentions, and his bravery in doing so cannot be denied. It might have gone better for him had he just faced up to the charges at the beginning and stood trial.”

        Your naviety on the above with regards to Assange is astonishing, Assange is a journalist he’s a political prisoner held WITHOUT CHARGE at Belmarsh prison in England under the threat of extradition to the USA, the Extradition Treaty between the UK and the USA does NOT allow for the extradition of political prisoners.

        The Swedes abandoned the rape charges against Assange as they turned out to be baseless, the USA’s chief prosecution witness against Assange that he hacked secret info in the USA admitted that he lied, he worked for Wikileaks and was turned by the CIA. The UN Special Rapporteur on torture, Nils Melzer, appealed to British authorities to immediately release Julian Assange from prison.

        Assange’s crime is one of releasing info on the machinations of UK/USA actions such as the well known Collateral Murder video.

        Bing Videos

        Trial By Jury – Craig Murray

        THE CROWN CAME FOR CRAIG MURRAY – Gordon Dangerfield

        “I am not trying to make a case for jury-less trials”

        Fair enough but convictions must be evidence based not judge based.

        Liked by 2 people

  13. First, we have the irrationality of human beings, and then we have the collective, class-based considerations of individuals and groups, allied with time-honoured convention. To my mind, governmental talk of jury-reform is yet another policy-of-fascination which will never come-to-pass.

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  14. I found the comments to be intelligent and thought-provoking.

    I would suggest a couple of things.

    A single judge is more easily bribed than a jury.

    There are instances where groups and individuals may be given immunity from prosecution before their behaviour has been examined in depth. How can that be right?

    Liked by 1 person

    1. That usually involved what is called ‘turning king’s/queen’s evidence’ and can be the only way that the crime is stopped. `Essentially, a member of gang, for example, although probably equally guilty or, certainly ‘art and part’, will give evidence against the other gang members in return for a lesser sentence or non-prosecution. Affording someone immunity usually means that the law has no other method of bringing the perpetrators to justice, but the crime is cracked wide open by the person who had provided the evidence and is given the immunity, or that an infiltrator, who may commit crimes while being undercover, or whatever, will be given immunity in return for the evidence he/she provides that allows the operation to be shut down and/or prosecuted. It might not appear to be right – and it isn’t, really, I suppose – but it may be the only way the law can put a stop to certain illegal and/or dangerous activities.

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  15. Republic: “… Murray was convicted on the words and opinions of a judge not a jury, he’s the only person EVER to have been convicted and imprisoned for jigsaw identification, even though at least two MSM journalists DID reveal some of the Alphabet women’s names without any recourse…”

    Another man was jailed for six months for divulging the names on-line. He was not convicted on the words and opinions of a judge, but for breaching the court order given by that judge. There is a difference. It was the breaching of a court order he was convicted on, and that Craig Murray was convicted on, whether you accept it or not. I do not believe either should have been convicted, but neither do I think that anyone should defy a court order unless it is so onerous and unjust that it defies reason.

    You are right about the jigsaw identification, but, in the circumstances, it was not so abnormal or unreasonable, given the subsequent torrent of moral outrage and abuse that followed the court case. Personally, but it is just my opinion, Alex Salmond would have been acquitted by a judge. The evidence just was not there and/or was not strong enough to stand up in court. That is the very heart of the matter: following the evidence, not emotion, as you are doing now.

    Julian Assange ran before the alleged rape charges could be tried. I do not get your point or why you are so aggressive. Having listened to Assange, read about his early life, read what his father had to say, and boned up on what he actually did, I would say a good case could have been made on the grounds that he is autistic – high-functioning – and that could have been his defence against extradition to America. His decision to run right at the beginning has been his downfall. His life has been ruined. Yes, I do know about the British/American machinations

    Another man, a Scot, who hacked into the Pentagon military files escaped extradition on the grounds of his autism. Assange has not been classed as a political prisoner, although I take on board that that is what he is, essentially, now. I stated that I do not believe he should be sent to America, political prisoner or otherwise, and yes, I agree that being kept in prison, without charge, in the UK, is abominable. What more do you want me to say? I am not a lawyer, and I am not his lawyer.

    Why do you see the splinter in my eye but not the beam in your own? Women are being let down every day in Scotland as the rape statistics, domestic abuse statistics and murder statistics show; their rights are being removed every day; they are forced to call men who have raped them ‘she’. I say again, that is fine and dandy? Just so long as it is not being done to men? If this is your idea of justice, you can keep it. I wanted to play Devil’s Advocate on the issue of juries because we are going to be faced soon with possible new legislation on that score, and Hate Crime legislation is only a month away. What of those? I’m sorry to say it, Republic, but you are the very epitome of ‘not all men’ and ‘what about the men?’

    By all means, put up a defence for keeping juries, refute what I have said, but please refrain from putting words I have never uttered into my mouth. It is always the same: when a woman tries to talk about women’s issues, some men start to froth at the mouth and want to silence us with whataboutery. We are over half the population and we deserve a voice on issue that affect us. Or we don’t, and we live in a patriarchal totalitarian dictatorship.

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    1. “By all means, put up a defence for keeping juries, refute what I have said, but please refrain from putting words I have never uttered into my mouth. It is always the same: when a woman tries to talk about women’s issues, some men start to froth at the mouth and want to silence us with whataboutery. We are over half the population and we deserve a voice on issue that affect us. Or we don’t, and we live in a patriarchal totalitarian dictatorship.”

      Lorncal.

      I’m sorry you feel that way about this discussion I’m not being aggressive or trivial when it comes to women’s rights, believe it or not I’m all for them, however I’m also all for evidence based convictions, and for the accused no matter who he or she is, is allowed the right to be tried by a jury of his or her peers.

      I know you don’t want to do away with juries, you said so, if they go down that road in Scotland and do away with juries beginning with sexual assault/rape trials, we would be extremely foolish to think that they wouldn’t end up being rolled out for other crimes, and from there its just a hop a skip and a jump, until, well you get the picture.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. I wouldn’t presume to put words in your mouth, Lorna – and I didn’t. I have quoted your words at length, and describing jurors as “nodding donkeys” or “very amateur” or “cognitively compromised”, or unable to “follow the evidence logically or reasonably” and lacking the skills “to sift through (it) and understand the complexities and nuances” (possibly due to the absence of a private education) sounds pretty contemptuous.

        Then there is your ‘verdict’ on your fellow Scots:

        “No doubt exists in my mind that juries in Scotland, made up of my fellow citizens, bring now, and would bring in the future, the same prejudices and deep-seated misogyny (as those English juries)”

        Guilty, guilty, guilty!

        And still you have no wish to “do away with juries”.

        Amazing.

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      2. I agree with you which is why we need to ensure that women do get a fair deal. I absolutely believe that an accused is entitled to a fair trial and afforded the best defence he/she can get. You misunderstand: I do not wish to do away with juries for sexual crimes. I want jurors to be properly trained and I want special courts for sexual crimes, video-links for those who cannot face the court or the accused in court (unless the alleged victim is willing to give evidence in person (and I know this is possible now, but not extensively).

        I agree that, if non-jury trials were rolled out for sex crimes, they run the risk of being rolled out across the board, which is worrying, and that is why I would like special courts for sex crimes only, even if jury trials are retained. This would go a long way to reassuring women that their needs are being met. However, I would be happy with at least some training and a professional person sitting in with a jury, not influencing the jurors, but keeping them focused on the cold, hard facts of the case. Since rape is such a secretive type of crime, it will not always be possible to have good evidence, and that cannot be helped, and alleged victims need to have this explained to them if they are to recover. Also, in domestic rapes, it will be even more difficult to bring hard evidence. That is just a fact of life

        I have long thought that there a dearth of understanding of how women react to fear and threats. They are socialized from birth, most of them, to acquiesce, to not fight, to give in, in a threatening or frightening situation, to not question authority figures such as policemen (Sarah Everard). New studies show that women who acquiesce in such situations usually end up dead if they allow themselves to be coerced into a vehicle or a place from which they cannot escape. To suggest that a woman is consenting in such a situation is beyond cruelty. New advice is, fight back, refuse to co-operate, question, scream loudly, and you might save your life. I have also long believed that girls should be taught self-defence at school, from the earliest years, so that they will have the confidence not to be terrified witless, but might retain some calm to be able to escape a dangerous situation. Right now, our boundaries are being torn down and our innate sense of our own survival, our gut instincts, are being eroded and derided by those who would harm us or put us in a state of discomfort or fear.

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  16. Now, now, stringvest, if you are not actually putting words in my mouth, you are misinterpreting what I said, which is what those juries were doing. You have proved my point. What is the point in discussing juries and their shortcomings if we don’t actually talk about their shortcomings? Surely, that is the point?

    It is a fact of life that people who are educated to a high standard are more likely to be elected to be lawyers, advocates and judges in our legal system. Why would that be controversial. The fact that they come from a certain narrow stratum of society is, surely, more concerning, although that is changing, too, as people from the state sector are appointed more and more.

    Again, this is what I mean. You, too, are allowing emotion to get in the way of reality and evidence. Facts are facts. Nothing I say can change that and nothing you say can change that, either. I hope that a study is done on Scottish juries, and I’d bet that you’d get exactly the same findings. This has long been known and has remained a problem, particularly for females who for some reason – perhaps you can explain it – must reach a higher standard of probity and demeanour than males. It is unarguable because the facts support that view, and studies done on juries also found that juries had more females on them, they tended to bring in a Not Guilty verdict when the victim was female. That is fact

    Women have long been aware that female-led juries are no more likely to be fairer to them than male-led ones and this reflects societal prejudices across the board. I have long studied these phenomena, stringvest, and they are concerning – or am I the only person who thinks so?

    I have not found anyone guilty. I have offered an open verdict. Again, you make my point for me. You simply do not believe the evidence and bring emotion into play. No, I, personally have no great wish to do away with juries, but I know people who do. Like most women, girls and children, I would assume, I want to live in an independent Scotland that is not just the same as everywhere else, but has made efforts to be better.

    Being no spring chicken, a certain resignation has set in, but I want younger generations of females to be able to walk the streets safely, and, if they are attacked or if they are abused in their homes or, God forbid, killed, as between 100 and 200 are every year in the UK, and a fair proportion of those are in Scotland as all on here must know from the television news, on-line news and newspapers, I would wish them to receive a fair outcome based on cold, hard evidence, on an understanding of how women react to violence or the threat of it or the fear of it, not on prejudices and biases brought into the jury room. That is all. Is that too much to ask in the 21st century?

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    1. Ach Lorna, hen – that wis anither long wan… mun àm a bha mi deiseil cha robh de lùth annam na bhualadh piseag.

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      1. Oh dear, string, are you a psychopath? Or is you English exhausted that you need to write in Gaelic to try and flummox everyone. Or is it to show off your ‘Scottishness’? I am Scots, too, although my Gaelic could be better. I have Pictish DNA which kind of trumps your Gaelic ancestry.

        I must assume that you are under the age of forty because, at school, college or university in the not-so-long-ago past, Scottish students learned to read texts which were considerably longer than mine. That facility has gone now, then

        The age of the tweet has destroyed concentration. Here I was thinking that we had reached the very depths of governmental incompetence and inability to actually debate anything or follow any argument reasonably and with logic. I was wrong. We are there already? No wonder our government cannot concentrate for two seconds on anything and we are in the pits.

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  17. Basically there are many flaws with these ‘fake jury’ scenarios, including those feeding in to the SG choices to try to remove them. Alternative research in England where the researchers were given permission to actually question real Juries showed that they are more balanced and responsible, essentially proving the Scottish research false.

    Over and above that, on this specific program, there are many other flaws. See this Times article. You should really be asking who is trying to manipulate you, and to what end. https://archive.is/OmN2U

    Despite that, all judicial systems have flaws, and have evolved to their present state. They work as an integrated whole, and simply changing one part will have knock on effect, possibly detrimental. The jury system is based on the principal “better that 10 guilty men go free, than one innocent man be wrongly convicted”. I’d suggest we’re well short of that 10 to 1 ratio for flaws.

    Another issue specific to Scottish cases (vs English cases) is that it seems COPFS is more willing to prosecute poor cases (say 50:50 chance of conviction) compared to CPS who want to have a “likely conviction” basis (I’d guess at 66%-75%) before they proceed. Therefore there will in general be a lower conviction rate in Scotland (across all cases), but a greater chance of correctly convicting a weak case than would happen in England.

    The final argument in favour of keeping the current scheme (though this is mainly applicable to England rather than Scotland) is the ability of a Jury to reject a conviction despite the law (or statue) where the believe the result is unjust, or even that the “law” is wrong (Jury Nullification) as written on in application. That is the last backstop of democracy, as we can use it to send a message to the legislation – it does however require that the Juries know the right (and duty) and that the accused be willing to chance that the Jury do.

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    1. I didn’t claim they were foolproof, JB, nor ever would do so. I said that they were programmes and they require viewing figures to be reasonable. My point was never that they are 100% accurate, but that, using the transcripts faithfully (which I believe they did) and giving the actual jury decision, one of the double juries and the other jury did not follow the evidence. Had they done so, they would never have reached a manslaughter verdict on the evidence itself, so something else was at play, and that something else must have been pre conceived ideas/prejudice/bias.

      The judge in the third trial, where the wife had been brutally murdered and the act had been heard by both children, and the disposal of the body into the boot of the car by the daughter, was so incensed at the stupidity and shallowness of the verdict that he forced the jury to sit through the sentencing and each point of evidence before he sentenced the husband to several times the normal tariff for manslaughter.  It was so obvious that the man was a manipulative, cold-blooded killer that something very strange must have happened with the jury. Since jury sittings are secret, we will never know what that was. I may be very wrong, but I’d guess it was misogyny, plain and simple.

      A jury bringing in a controversial verdict is nothing new in Scotland: the change from Not Proven, the logical verdict, to Not Guilty was done to free men who were radicals and whom the establishment wanted to hang. The jury wanted to emphasize their lack of culpability and to thumb their noses at the establishment. They, however, had not murdered anyone, to my knowledge, in cold blood, and it had not been a domestic killing involving a female, because, where two males are involved, the same prejudices and biases normally do not arise.

      To be absolutely fair to the defendant in the double jury scenario (a real case, and the trial based wholly on the transcripts) he possibly had grounds for a manslaughter verdict on the partial defence of provocation had he either actually strangled the wife to death or had he battered her to death with a hammer which was to hand (not outside in his workshop) but not both, because he broke the chain of action and created two separate scenarios. I do not believe that in either of the two televised trials that a Scottish jury/prosecution/defence/judge would have behaved differently, given the circumstances. That one jury followed the evidence and brought in a Guilty verdict and the other did not was almost certainly the second was too much under the influence of one person who had appalling prejudices and biases against females, and did not follow the evidence.

      How much this person was playing up to the cameras is a moot point, but, whenever he was challenged, his aggressive attitude seemed to be very real. I know that all systems have flaws and perfection is a pipe dream, it is females who do not receive justice most often. That also is my point. Something is wrong and it has to be fixed or women will walk away from the justice system itself, leading to justice being sought in other ways.

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      1. Did you even read the Times article? If not I suggest you do now.

        https://archive.is/OmN2U

        The TV programs (or at least the ‘double jury’ one) did not feature any Juries. You should not refer to them as such.

        They were fake. They were actors selected to entertain. One should not draw any conclusion upon actual Jury behaviour based upon TV programs, when the latter are there to entertain.

        The transcripts are largely immaterial. There are no transcripts for Jury deliberations, so that is all speculation and should be ignored. I believe it was stated that the program did not demonstrate much of the prosecution case, so possibly it itself was severely flawed in some fashion? One can not tell.

        Did the Judge give a 7 year sentence, or a 14 year sentence, usually yielding a 7 year tariff? Your article leads to a bit of confusion, as the two things are different.

        As to the trial with the murder and body disposal via car. There the judicial system worked. The judge always has the option for a life sentence in a manslaughter case if the circumstances warrant it, or anything short of that. Apparently he did in that case, hence the 20+ year sentence, implying a 10+ year usual tariff – if the parole board is satisfied after 10 years.

        So correct overall result. Someone was unlawfully killed, the Jury returned that ‘unlawful killing’ (manslaughter) verdict, then the killer got a suitable prison term as a consequence.

        I would not assume misogyny in either original case, that is to tar all men with the same brush. If it was so common as you seem to assume, there would be a dramatically higher murder rate.

        Things like the Everard murder are the “exceptions which prove the rule”. Another of those exceptions would be the woman who arranged to meet here ex-husband, then killed him with a hammer she took to that meeting. She was initially convicted, then acquitted on appeal. My view is that there the original conviction should have stood,.

        However in all these cases one has to accept such outliers occur, either in the original crime (or alleged crime), or in the result. So despite one’s disagreement, one has to live with the result.

        That comes back to the necessary inherent bias in the system: The “better 10 guilty go free” scenario.

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      2. Did you read my piece or any of my comments. I did say that they were members of the public chosen for the programme. I did say that we cannot take these types of programmes at face value or words to that effect.

        The statistics on rape and sexual assault, which are on the rise, tell their own story, and I take into account the fact that this type of crime is notoriously difficult to prove for the reasons I also stated.

        I am sorry, JB, but when a system is made for one sees only, and let’s face out, the entire society we live in was constructed around men, you are going to have problems with justice. We have come a long way, I do not deny that, and, no, I do not tar all men with the same brush. I also believe that, if women make false accusations or murder, that they, too, face the consequences.

        Over 90% of violent crime is perpetrated by men, with 98% of all sexual crimes being perpetrated by men. The low conviction rates for sexual crimes belie the reality for females. I had long suspected that the same kinds of prejudices that dog rape trials also dog, to an extent, domestic murder trials, and the second programme showed this.

        It is about justice for one half of the human race, JB. Yes, I believe we were getting there, with still a way to go, but the latest ‘woke’ nonsense will push it all backwards again. Woman are going to have for their basic rights not only in the criminal court now, but also in the civil court because our stupid governments and institutions are making and following laws that are fundamentally flawed and inherently unfair – on top of the underlying unfairness. Behind these ridiculous changes to our laws is the age-old division between men and women – that is, men who claim to be women and the women who are fighting to protect basic female rights

        Women are not men with a bit missing; they are autonomous human beings who require to be viewed through that lens, not one which has embedded expectations of them and which allows those expectations to colour jury verdicts. Surely that is not too much to ask? Perhaps it is time that juries were also filmed as court room trials are so that we can see how they reach their decisions? Just a thought. 

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